An oldie, but goodie

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking ASA

Bases loaded, one out. B4 hits a fly ball to the outfield. R2 and R3 were off with the hit. R3 misses 2B on the way to third and R2 has passed R1 who was holding the base for a tag-up. F8 makes a diving effort, but traps the ball. R1 scores easily, but thinking the ball was caught, R3 stops and returns to 1B touching 2B on the way back.

Approaching 1B, R3 notices R4 standing on the bag as F8 throws to F4 to appeal R3 missing 2B.

The ruling should be.............

[greymule]

Odd coincidence. I was about to post my own question involving a runner missing 2B on the way back to 1B.

At first glance I thought this was easy, but now I notice a complicating wrinkle. Here goes:

R2 is out the moment he passes R1. Two out.

The appeal at 2B is denied. Although R3 missed it the first time, he got it "last time by" on his way back to 1B. However, R3 is still the third out on the force play that he reinstated by going back in the direction of 1B.

It would be tempting to say that in a continuous action play with the third out a force play, no run can score, so R1's run is nullified. However, at the time R1 scored, there were two outs, and the only available force out for the defense was R3 missing 2B. But R3, in returning to 1B, touched 2B and cancelled the appeal possibility. At that moment, after R1 has scored, R2 has legally touched 2B and we know that R4 gets to 1B.

With R1 having scored and runners legally on their bases, R3 opts to go back to 1B and reinstates the force. He is put out on that force play. The question is, Do we consider the reinstatement of the force play to have occurred after the play in which the run scored, or is it part of continuing action?

Well, what if R1 was the winning run in the bottom of the 7th? The run has scored. The game is over. R3 has touched 2B and R4 is on first. No possible force out is available to the defense. After that, R3's reinstatement of the force play is irrelevant. So in the middle of the game, I'd say score the run. Of course, now I will find out that ASA considers R3's baserunning mistake part of continuing action.

[TexBlue]

I gotta think the force was reinstated when B3 rounded 2nd going to 1st. The last out of the inning was a force, no run counts.

Why do I feel like I'm missing something?

[Dakota]

Left unsaid is that part of this would not be seen by a single umpire (almost guaranteed), and with 2-man, you and your partner need to keep to your individual priorities to see it all and rule correctly.

[greymule]

Is the following play any different in theory?

Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 2 outs. Daniels gets an infield single on a roller that F2 picks up down the 1B line. Everyone moves up a base. Baker, now standing on 3B after Abel has scored—and without getting time out from the umpire—runs halfway back to 2B to pick up his hat. F2 throws to F5, who steps on 3B for the reinstated force on Baker.

Yes, the third out was a force play, but the run scored legally before Baker gave the defense an opportunity for the third out. The reinstated force is a new play. Anyway, that's my argument for counting the run.

Dakota, this ruling came after viewing the various replays from several angles.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
Left unsaid is that part of this would not be seen by a single umpire (almost guaranteed), and with 2-man, you and your partner need to keep to your individual priorities to see it all and rule correctly.

That is the type of answer I would expect from a particular coach on another board.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
That is the type of answer I would expect from a particular coach on another board.

Yeeeeoooowww... you cut me to the quick!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA

Bases loaded, one out. B4 hits a fly ball to the outfield. R2 and R3 were off with the hit. R3 misses 2B on the way to third and R2 has passed R1 who was holding the base for a tag-up. F8 makes a diving effort, but traps the ball. R1 scores easily, but thinking the ball was caught, R3 stops and returns to 1B touching 2B on the way back.

Approaching 1B, R3 notices R4 standing on the bag as F8 throws to F4 to appeal R3 missing 2B.

The ruling should be.............

R2 out for passing R1....two outs.

Whether a missed base appeal (which is still in play) or the reinstatement of the force by a retreating runner, R3 is the third out. This is a force out. No run scores.

[greymule]

This is a force out. No run scores.

OK. Good question, though. ASA apparently considers action to be continuous until the ball goes back to the mound. So, in the play I devised, the run that had scored legally would also be nullified by the reinstated force play. Interesting.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
This is a force out. No run scores.

OK. Good question, though. ASA apparently considers action to be continuous until the ball goes back to the mound. So, in the play I devised, the run that had scored legally would also be nullified by the reinstated force play. Interesting.

Don't know, I ignored it. What they hell was your play doing in my thread?

g'damn whippersnapper!!!


Actually, a little preventive umpiring would have handled your situation had the umpire seen it in time to call time.

[kono]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Whether a missed base appeal (which is still in play) or the reinstatement of the force by a retreating runner, R3 is the third out. This is a force out. No run scores.

Mike - just so I'm clear on this - are you saying that there is no "last time by" interpretation in ASA??

Thanx
-Kono

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by kono

Mike - just so I'm clear on this - are you saying that there is no "last time by" interpretation in ASA??


Thanx
-Kono

Correct. In ASA you must touch the base "in order" regardless of direction. IOW, if the runner advances 1 to 2 to 3 and must return to 1, the reverse must be 3 to 2 to 1. If the runner touches 1, misses 2 and then touches 3, the reverse of 3, 2, 1 does not alleviate a missed base appeal for the first time by in ASA.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by greymule
This is a force out. No run scores.

OK. Good question, though. ASA apparently considers action to be continuous until the ball goes back to the mound. So, in the play I devised, the run that had scored legally would also be nullified by the reinstated force play. Interesting.

Strangely enough, I caught on to the reinstated force in IM's play, but not in gm's. I think what threw me was that I saw IM's as R3 never reaching a base safely, but Baker having been safe at 3rd at some point. I guess R2 passing 2nd is just as "safe" until the appeal.

[greymule]

If the runner touches 1, misses 2 and then touches 3, the reverse of 3, 2, 1 does not alleviate a missed base appeal for the first time by in ASA.

In other words, just because he missed 2B while advancing doesn't mean he can also miss 2B while retreating, right?

I shouldn't have used the term "last time by" in my post. The runner simply retouched a base he had missed (and kept going toward 1B). Here's what I think "last time by" properly refers to:

Abel on 1B. Baker hits a long drive. Abel rounds 2B (either hits or misses) and F8 makes a diving catch. Abel retreats but misses 2B on his way back to 1B. The defense throws the ball to 1B in an attempt to appeal Abel, but the ball does into DBT. Abel now tags up at first and (since let's say he was between 1B and 2B when the ball was thrown) takes his two-base award by touching 2B and then going to 3B.

Under "last time by," Abel's touch of 2B on the award negates any appeal at 2B for his previous miss. He got it "last time by." That's OBR for certain, but I have not seen that question addressed in ASA. In fact, I was about to pose that question when Mike's post appeared. I was also wondered whether if Abel's miss had been "gross" (i.e., he was halfway to 3B and ran directly back to 1B before the ball was thrown away), would the call be any different?