Batted ball contacts batter/runner - "Out" of the box

[teebob21]

Debating this with some local guys. Sitch: Stereotypical bang-bang batted ball bounces up and hits the BR. All codes have this as a dead-ball out if the BR is out of the box.

The question: Does "out" of the box differ between ASA/Fed/NCAA codes the same way as batting a ball does? IE: ASA/Fed require a body part on the ground entirely outside the lines while NCAA requires only any ground contact outside the lines.

I say yes after going to the books, but I'm looking for confirmation.

[CecilOne]

Not knowing any of the rules you specified, I'll comment on USA and NFHS.
There is no partial in or out of the batter box in either rule set.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Debating this with some local guys. Sitch: Stereotypical bang-bang batted ball bounces up and hits the BR. All codes have this as a dead-ball out if the BR is out of the box.

The question: Does "out" of the box differ between ASA/Fed/NCAA codes the same way as batting a ball does? IE: ASA/Fed require a body part on the ground entirely outside the lines while NCAA requires only any ground contact outside the lines.

I say yes after going to the books, but I'm looking for confirmation.

Wouldn't it be fair to consider that, once the batter has advanced, even partially, out of the batter's box, that "contacts a fair batted ball" is the more appropriate rule to cite than "batted ball bounces up and hits"?

[jmkupka]

Batter bunts the ball down, into the soft powder, up in the front corner of the BB, where it comes to a stop (completely in the box, completely in fair territory).

After hesitating, batter realizes its a fair ball, takes off, and comes in contact with the ball (both feet completely in the box).

Has she not contacted a fair batted ball, and (possibly) interfered with the defense's chance of making an out?

NCAA is the only one I'm aware of that states in B&W that if a foot is in the box, it is a foul ball. Which is weird, because it's a fair ball.

[jmkupka]

I dont think so... it's laying stationary in fair territory...if the batter doesn't bump it on the way to 1B, it's a fair ball that can be fielded by F2 to fire wherever; if the batter does bump it, it's declared foul.
No biggie... I'll rule as the book tells me to, without reservation.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Wouldn't it be fair to consider that, once the batter has advanced, even partially, out of the batter's box, that "contacts a fair batted ball" is the more appropriate rule to cite than "batted ball bounces up and hits"?

Well, that was the mindset I was using when debating this originally! I didn't have my book at the time. A handful of local guys were enjoying some beverages when this came up. Let me know if I've overdone the Rulebook Lawyer on this.

NCAA 11.5.1.1 states that it is a foul ball if the batter is hit (without intent to contact) with a batted ball while IN the box. 11.21.7 declares the runner out when a batted ball hits the runner when she is OUT of the box, and the ball is fair. That's almost verbatim from the rule. None of that was up for debate the other night.

I was claiming that in NCAA the batter is, by Rule 2.20.1, OUT of the box is any part of the foot extends beyond the line, as she is not "within" the space of the batter's box. (consistent with 11.15.1, the rule applicable to the moment of bat-ball contact) Thus, the batter who has taken a half step after her swing, with half a foot over the line and the other entire foot within the box, and is hit by the batted ball....is out by 11.21.7.

This was not a popular opinion around the watering hole.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Batter bunts the ball down, into the soft powder, up in the front corner of the BB, where it comes to a stop (completely in the box, completely in fair territory).

After hesitating, batter realizes its a fair ball, takes off, and comes in contact with the ball (both feet completely in the box).

Has she not contacted a fair batted ball, and (possibly) interfered with the defense's chance of making an out?

NCAA is the only one I'm aware of that states in B&W that if a foot is in the box, it is a foul ball. Which is weird, because it's a fair ball.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Isn't that the same as a batted/bunted ball that bounces up and hits the batter while in the box? A foul ball by rule, regardless of geography.

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I dont think so... it's laying stationary in fair territory...if the batter doesn't bump it on the way to 1B, it's a fair ball that can be fielded by F2 to fire wherever; if the batter does bump it, it's declared foul.
No biggie... I'll rule as the book tells me to, without reservation.

No, not at all, according to USA Softball or NFHS.

A batted ball that hits the batter while in the box is a foul ball. Emphasis on batted ball hits batter. USA references "Foul Ball (F)" and 7.4-J. NFHS references 2-25-1-f and 7-2-1-f.

A fair batted ball that the batter-runner makes contact with is an out, without any stated exception for the batter's box. Emphasis on batter-runner contacts the ball. USA 8.4-F(4), NFHS 8-2-7. In each case, as suggested by jmkupka, that contact is interference with a fair batted ball that could be played if it weren't contacted illegally.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Well, that was the mindset I was using when debating this originally! I didn't have my book at the time. A handful of local guys were enjoying some beverages when this came up. Let me know if I've overdone the Rulebook Lawyer on this.

NCAA 11.5.1.1 states that it is a foul ball if the batter is hit (without intent to contact) with a batted ball while IN the box. 11.21.7 declares the runner out when a batted ball hits the runner when she is OUT of the box, and the ball is fair. That's almost verbatim from the rule. None of that was up for debate the other night.

I was claiming that in NCAA the batter is, by Rule 2.20.1, OUT of the box is any part of the foot extends beyond the line, as she is not "within" the space of the batter's box. (consistent with 11.15.1, the rule applicable to the moment of bat-ball contact) Thus, the batter who has taken a half step after her swing, with half a foot over the line and the other entire foot within the box, and is hit by the batted ball....is out by 11.21.7.

This was not a popular opinion around the watering hole.

Now, remember your OP asked about all rules sets, not just NCAA. And in the post immediately above (so far), I point out a very different ruling in USA and NFHS than your cited 11.21.7.

NCAA 2.20.1 explains that "outside" the space relates to an entire foot in contact with the ground completely outside the line that defines the space. "Within" is the word used to mean no part of the foot can be over the line (which is part of the space)

And these definitions are consistent, EXCEPT when an individual rule specifically states otherwise. Those instances are illegally batted ball 11.15.1, and the duplicative batter is out cites 11.21.4 and 11.21.5. In both cases, they clearly state "any part of the foot" or "any part of the body".

But, 11.21.7 does NOT use that added phrase of "any part", just "out of the batter's box". so that refers backs to 2.20.1, that the foot must have touched completely outside the batter's box. Remember, NCAA is the rules set that is absolutely literal in what it says is what it means; nothing is to be interpolated or extrapolated for consistency with other rules.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No, not at all, according to USA Softball or NFHS.

A batted ball that hits the batter while in the box is a foul ball. Emphasis on batted ball hits batter. USA references "Foul Ball (F)" and 7.4-J. NFHS references 2-25-1-f and 7-2-1-f.

A fair batted ball that the batter-runner makes contact with is an out, without any stated exception for the batter's box. Emphasis on batter-runner contacts the ball. USA 8.4-F(4), NFHS 8-2-7. In each case, as suggested by jmkupka, that contact is interference with a fair batted ball that could be played if it weren't contacted illegally.

Thank you !!

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

And these definitions are consistent, EXCEPT when an individual rule specifically states otherwise. Those instances are illegally batted ball 11.15.1, and the duplicative batter is out cites 11.21.4 and 11.21.5. In both cases, they clearly state "any part of the foot" or "any part of the body".

But, 11.21.7 does NOT use that added phrase of "any part", just "out of the batter's box". so that refers backs to 2.20.1, that the foot must have touched completely outside the batter's box. Remember, NCAA is the rules set that is absolutely literal in what it says is what it means; nothing is to be interpolated or extrapolated for consistency with other rules.

Thanks, Steve. This makes perfect sense. I owe some guys a beverage. I was incorrect, and I was overthinking it.

[jmkupka]

Sorry for the late response, but Steve, does your comment mean you agree with my premise regarding contacting the fair batted ball (ball and batter completely in the BB), even in NCAA ball?

Of course completely recognizing the difference between that and the batter fouling the ball into herself.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Sorry for the late response, but Steve, does your comment mean you agree with my premise regarding contacting the fair batted ball (ball and batter completely in the BB), even in NCAA ball?

Of course completely recognizing the difference between that and the batter fouling the ball into herself.

To me, in all but NCAA, it is absolutely clear that the correct ruling in your case play is an out; it is a fair batted ball, and the batter-runner initiated the contact.

In NCAA, I think 11.21.7 wording doesn't support that, it requires the batter to be out of the box to be declared out, and I don't see any other rule that might be clearer. Batter-runner is out (12.5) just doesn't address it at all, like USA 8.4-F(4), NFHS 8-2-7.