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Old Sun Aug 11, 2019, 01:13pm
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Two rules questions inspired by NFHS test

1) A batted ground ball comes to rest before passing either first or third base. The bottom of the ball is not physically touching the foul line, but a portion of the ball is above the foul line when the ball comes to rest.

Fair or foul? (2-20 Art. 1)

2) The outfield fence has yellow safety tubing along the top. A batted fly ball hits this tubing and (a) bounces up in the air, and falls past the fence untouched; (b) bounces up in the air, is misplayed by F8 a la Canseco, and falls past the fence before touching the ground; (c) obviously grazes this tubing and then clears the fence without a major change in direction.

Home run or two base award? (2-28 "In Flight"; 8-4-3(f))

The case book has 2(a) listed as a home run. (8-4-3 Situation S) If this is true, then the ball is still a fly ball. This contradicts another case interpretation in the same scenario where (b) above is a two base award, as well as the definition of "in flight" where a ball is defined as in flight even if it is touched by a fielder. If (a) is a home run and fly ball, by rule why would it not be an out if the ball is caught by F8?
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Last edited by teebob21; Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:58pm. Reason: Added case book cite
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2019, 07:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
1) A batted ground ball comes to rest before passing either first or third base. The bottom of the ball is not physically touching the foul line, but a portion of the ball is above the foul line when the ball comes to rest.

Fair or foul? (2-20 Art. 1)
Which side of the line? The touching part is what matters.
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2019, 08:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Which side of the line? The touching part is what matters.
Are you sure the "touching part" is what really matters?

The rule states "settles or is touched on or over fair territory...

So theoretically, and maybe physically, the bottom of the ball could be touching foul territory just outside the chalk, but a portion of the ball is "over" fair territory (as the foul line should probably be called the fair line).
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Old Sun Aug 11, 2019, 08:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
(b) above is a two base award, as well as the definition of "in flight" where a ball is defined as in flight even if it is touched by a fielder.
But the ball is no longer considered "in flight" once it touches the ground, an object, or a person other than a player.

So once the ball hits the top of the fence, it is no longer considered "in flight". And I think the definition should be amended to state "other than a defensive player".

(A line drive that hits a base runner that is then caught by a defensive player before the ball ever hits the ground is not an out.)
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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 09:57am
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Are you sure the "touching part" is what really matters?

The rule states "settles or is touched on or over fair territory...

So theoretically, and maybe physically, the bottom of the ball could be touching foul territory just outside the chalk, but a portion of the ball is "over" fair territory (as the foul line should probably be called the fair line).
settles or

is touched on or over fair territory...
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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
But the ball is no longer considered "in flight" once it touches the ground, an object, or a person other than a player.

So once the ball hits the top of the fence, it is no longer considered "in flight".
And I think the definition should be amended to state "other than a defensive player".

(A line drive that hits a base runner that is then caught by a defensive player before the ball ever hits the ground is not an out.)
And that's how I got here. The case book interps for 8-4-3 Situation S don't make any sense in relation to the rest of the rules. Which got me thinking, if a ball grazes the fence on the way over, is it a HR or a 2 base award?
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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 12:16pm
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that same ball, if projected out precisely parallel to its current location, but now in the grass instead of on dirt, would be touching the line due to the height of the grass. Doesnt seem right to call it fair out there, and foul in the skinned infield.

Last edited by jmkupka; Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 12:21pm.
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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 12:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
settles or

is touched on or over fair territory...
Or,

Settles (or is touched) on or over fair territory.

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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 01:07pm
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Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post

The case book has 2(a) listed as a home run. (8-4-3 Situation S)
TB21, my book has 2(a) "the hit is a live, ground ball." That's for the one that deflects off the top of the fence and lands in the outfield.

If it's the one where the ball hits the fence bounces up and lands on the other side of the fence, it's a HR.

I've read the rulings for Situation S and have no problem with any of them.

Can you clarify?
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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 03:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
TB21, my book has 2(a) "the hit is a live, ground ball." That's for the one that deflects off the top of the fence and lands in the outfield.

If it's the one where the ball hits the fence bounces up and lands on the other side of the fence, it's a HR.

I've read the rulings for Situation S and have no problem with any of them.

Can you clarify?
Page 61; 2019 case book. I think I created confusion by labeling my examples ABC before citing the case book.

In my OP; my 2(a) corresponds with Case Play 8.4.3.S(d). Ball hits the top of the fence and goes over. My 2(c) is a variant of this, as well.

My 2(b) corresponds with CP 8.4.3.S(b).

Here's the problem I have with the interps: A ball that strikes the top of the fence in fair territory is simultaneously a ground ball (it cannot be caught by a fielder for a fly out) and a fair fly ball (if it goes over untouched, it's a HR).
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Last edited by teebob21; Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 03:46pm.
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Old Mon Aug 12, 2019, 04:34pm
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Almost every rule set in both softball and baseball treat a batted ball that hits the top of the fence and then continues over the fence as a home run. The theory is that the ball had already passed the front plane of the fence/wall in flight, so once it hits the tubing and angles away from the field, it has already gone beyond that front plane in flight.

But if the ball bounces of the tubing and goes back toward the field, then the ball hasn't completely passed the front plane, and is no longer in flight. So if it subsequently contacts the fielder and then goes over, it is treated as a "ground" ball that deflects off the fielder for a two-base award.
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Old Tue Aug 13, 2019, 12:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
Almost every rule set in both softball and baseball treat a batted ball that hits the top of the fence and then continues over the fence as a home run.
I only work 2 sanctions. You state "almost every rule set" - does that mean you're aware of one/some that don't treat this as a HR?
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Old Tue Aug 13, 2019, 02:05pm
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Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
I only work 2 sanctions. You state "almost every rule set" - does that mean you're aware of one/some that don't treat this as a HR?
I said "almost" because I don't know them all, so there may be one out there that treats this differently.

I guess what I should have said is "all rule sets I'm aware of..." Sorry for the confusion!
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Old Wed Aug 14, 2019, 08:41am
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So here's what I think on the scenarios.

1) This is a fair ball. If the same ball was elevated straight up when touched, part of the ball is over fair territory.

2) I am fine with all of these outcomes, I just wish the rules and definitions would be aligned. By rule, a ball that strikes the fence is no longer in flight. There is a line in the book that explicitly calls out the fence as an object which grounds a ball...I saw it during the test and during the drafting of this OP post which I can't find now (unless I dreamt it).

Edit to add: ironically, I had this play a year ago at HS districts. Ball was hit off the tubing, caught by F8 in the air, and thrown in. DHC wanted an out; OHC wanted a home run. Neither got what they wanted.
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Last edited by teebob21; Wed Aug 14, 2019 at 08:47am.
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