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Old Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:00pm
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Question

My local association gave a practice test (NFHS). I disagreed with some of the answers and am curious as to the opinions of the board.
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1-Q. (T/F) Following a touchdown, the clock shall start next on the kick-off.
A. I say True but they said False
(Perhaps bad wording as I consider the free-kick play as a whole the "kick-off"...the clock starts during the play but not at the kick but when B first touches the ball, if at all.)
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2-Q. (T/F) A false start can only be committed by the offense.
A. I say True but they said False
(7-1-7 "by A", but no mention of "B")
Side-question: can K commit a false start (on a kick-off)? (apparently not per the rule)
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3-Q. (T/F) No foul can occur that takes a down away.
A. I say True but they said False
(Perhaps bad wording...no foul takes a down away but it can be the loss of down, but that is the right to REPLAY a down.)
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4-Q. (T/F) Holding is always a 10 yard penalty enforcement regardless of where the foul occurred.
A. I say True but they said False
(Unless the spot of holding was inside team A's 20 then half the distance to the goal line...or in the B's end zone by A safety. Holding is a "10 yard penalty", but perhaps the enforcement eludes to the fact that inside the 20 less than 10 yards will be marked off or safety. 9-2-1c, 9-2-3d)
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5-Q. (MC) On an extra point attempt, the umpire notices that all players on the line have interlocked legs. Which of the following occurs:
a. Live ball foul and five yard penalty.
b. Dead ball foul and five yard penalty.
c. Live ball foul and fifteen yard penalty.
d. none of the above.
A. I say D they said B.
("On an extra point attempt," implies live ball to me...and it's a 10 yard penalty. 9-2-16)
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Old Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:15pm
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1- False. The clock doesn't start on the kick off, it starts IF the ball is touched by R.

2- True. I have no idea why they answer false.

3- False. A foul that includes loss of down "takes a down away." Therefore the answer is False.

4- False. Inside the 20, it's not 10 yards. Therefore, the answer is False.

5- It's A or B. You're reading the rule for interlocked blocking, not innterlocked legs.

Why do you disagree with the answer and then give the reason why you missed it? Answer the question has it is, without adding anything to it.



[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 24th, 2003 at 12:26 AM]
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Old Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:25pm
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1-Q. (T/F) Following a touchdown, the clock shall start next on the kick-off.
False. On a free kick, the clock starts when (if) R touches the ball.


2-Q. (T/F) A false start can only be committed by the offense.
True. Offense and Team A are the same.


3-Q. (T/F) No foul can occur that takes a down away.
True. A penalty can disallow the right for a down to be replayed, but it never takes a down away.


4-Q. (T/F) Holding is always a 10 yard penalty enforcement regardless of where the foul occurred.
False. Enforcement of a penalty cannot take the ball more than half the distance from the enforcement spot to the offending team's goal line. The distance penalty for any foul may be delcined.


5-Q. (MC) On an extra point attempt, the umpire notices that all players on the line have interlocked legs.
Five-yard live-ball penalty for illegal formation (9-2-2)
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Old Thu Oct 23, 2003, 09:36pm
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Interlocked legs is a deadball foul?

I didn't know that
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Old Fri Oct 24, 2003, 12:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by biglaz
5-Q. (MC) On an extra point attempt, the umpire notices that all players on the line have interlocked legs.
Five-yard live-ball penalty for illegal formation (9-2-2)
9-2-2 says A runner may not grasp a teammate. What's that got to do with interlocked legs?
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Old Fri Oct 24, 2003, 07:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
3- False. A foul that includes loss of down "takes a down away." Therefore the answer is False.


[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 24th, 2003 at 12:26 AM]
BBR
I thought the loss of down aspect only denied a team the right to replay the down, not take it away. I am under the thought that each team A has 4 plays to attempt to reach the line to gain. No penality I can recall will ever take a down away, meaning that can only have 3 or 2 attempts. In a LOD penality,they were given teh chance to run the play but then chose to do something illegal. They HAD the play ran, but now can not REPLAY the down.

Maybe I am nit-picking in the wording, but this is how I explained it to a coach 2 weeks ago. Now he believes me. He was under the impression that the LOD made the down go from 2nd to 4th, no chance to play 3rd; 3rd to B al 1/10; ect. If you use the wording above, it gives that impression "take away the down".
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Old Fri Oct 24, 2003, 01:09pm
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Smile

I am the original poster of this thread...

With "True/False" questions that are not clearly "False" the key to answering the question correctly is knowing "when" and "when not" to allow a "minor" exception to make the question false.

I have had the "opportunity" to read and review around 1400 NFHS questions plus 200 FHSAA (Florida) questions (which are very similar to NFHS questions). One thing that I have learned is that you have to know the test writer's intention (i.e., what they are really asking). That only comes from repetition in seeing numerous NFHS questions. These tests are pretty good at measuring your academic knowledge of the rules, but note that academic knowledge (i.e., book smarts) isn't always the same as on-the-field knowledge (sometimes more of a practical approachor the practical application). (PLEASE DO NOT INTERPRET THIS AS A SLAM TO NFHS TEST WRITERS...IT IS NOT!!! It is just that you when you approach an academic test you have to be in an academic mind frame not the on-the-field (practical) mind frame!) It's just when you are dealing with absolute questions (i.e., True/False) you can argue both sides for about 25% of the answers....but with the consistency the NFHS questions and tests has built up over time in the way their questions are written, the rate of "defective" questions is down to only 1 to 2%.

In other words, some people say you should not read into questions...sometimes that's true, but sometimes its not true. There is no hard and fast rule--except to not take these tests in a vacumn (i.e., take each question in light of recent NFHS questions).

Please note that these five practice questions are NOT NFHS!!!! They were written by a very experienced official that I respect, but they are subject to the a practical approach I mentioned above and therefore I believe if I accept his answers I will be incorrect if I say the exact same question on an NFHS test in the future. I believe the test writer was testing one thing....but I believe a NFHS test writer would have answered the question the way I did.

An example would be "(T/F) Penalties are either 5, 10 or 15 yards." According to NFHS this is true, but hopefully every one knows at least a few exceptions:
1. but no more than half the distance to the goalline
2. the distance portion of a penalty may be declined.
3. sometimes the penalty is measured from the spot not from the previous spot, etc.
But these exceptions do not make the question false....Bewcause these exceptions are not what the test writer is asking.

BktBallRef: <>
Well, not to sure how to respond...I'm not giving the reason why I missed it-I'm giving the reason why I think my answer is the correct one.

In my original post I mentioned "bad wording" in Questions 1 and 2 and I will now place Questions 3 and 4 in that same category. For these answers there is still disagreement among the posters...it may be an area were, oddly enough, while we cannot agree on the answers, we can agree on the understanding of the rule...

Question 5...BktBallRef: << 5- It's A or B. You're reading the rule for interlocked blocking, not interlocked legs.>>
Thanks, I now agree with Answer B (I'm assuming illegal formation (which is a foul simultaneously with the snap) is a dead ball foul???).

From the NFHS Rulebook:
RULE 7: Snapping, Handing and Passing the Ball
SECTION 2: Position, Numbering and Action At The Snap
ART. 2 ... The players on each side of and next to the snapper may lock legs with the snapper, but any other A lineman must have each foot outside the closest foot of the player next to him at the snap. A's players may stand, crouch or kneel.

PENALTY: Illegal procedure or illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) - (S19); illegal snap (Art. 4) - (S7,S19); illegal numbering (Art. 5) - (S19); illegal shift (Art. 6) - (S20); illegal motion (Art. 7) - (S20); planned loose-ball infraction (Art. 8) - (S19) - 5 yards.

My thanks to all for the help...let me know if you still disagree.

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Old Fri Oct 24, 2003, 01:28pm
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Welcome to the wonderful world of Federation semantics.
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Old Fri Oct 24, 2003, 02:09pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by FLRookie2003
I am the original poster of this thread...

Question 5...BktBallRef: << 5- It's A or B. You're reading the rule for interlocked blocking, not interlocked legs.>>
Thanks, I now agree with Answer B (I'm assuming illegal formation (which is a foul simultaneously with the snap) is a dead ball foul???).

From the NFHS Rulebook:
RULE 7: Snapping, Handing and Passing the Ball
SECTION 2: Position, Numbering and Action At The Snap
ART. 2 ... The players on each side of and next to the snapper may lock legs with the snapper, but any other A lineman must have each foot outside the closest foot of the player next to him at the snap. A's players may stand, crouch or kneel.

PENALTY: Illegal procedure or illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) - (S19); illegal snap (Art. 4) - (S7,S19); illegal numbering (Art. 5) - (S19); illegal shift (Art. 6) - (S20); illegal motion (Art. 7) - (S20); planned loose-ball infraction (Art. 8) - (S19) - 5 yards.

If you notice the penalty signal for article 2 (S19) - there is no dead ball signal. Therefore this is a live ball foul - 5 yards (just like all illegal formations).
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Old Mon Oct 27, 2003, 03:23pm
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Wink

REPLY: As I read the original post, I read that it was your local association that constructed the test. So if the Federation test writers ever die in a plane crash, we know where they can get new authors who will uphold the high standards expected of Fed test writers!!
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