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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 12:49pm
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hesitation rule -

Coaching a tourney this weekend and had a Hesitation Rule call that I had not really heard before. Honestly, havent seen a lot of hesitation calls since 10U when girls with runner at 3B would round the bag stop and get called.

Anyhow, this weekend in 18U PGF game runner at 3B, ball 4 to batter which we called after ball 3 what we wanted defense to do if by some chance runner broke - runner slows down, then stops for a brief second then continues on to 2B - ball in circle, P did not engage the runner.

Umpire acknowledged our call for Hesitation, but said "thats her 1 allowed stop". He then noted to his partner "she stopped, her 1 allowed stop". Had not heard that interpretation before.

As I walked back I asked home plate ump if that was his interpretation as he is a really good ump and wanted to hear where I was amiss from my longtime understanding of the rule, he didnt really respond because I guess I did not go through proper channels but my thought was that if your partner quotes a rule that is not correct saying "I have her 1 allowed stop" that I shouldnt have to ask for help if you know he is wrong, confer and get it right. After the game he said he did not see rule the way partner ruled on the field.

So two part question:
* Little help on rule - does runner get 1 "stop"
* Expectations if you disagree with partners rule interpretation that he says outloud? Is that something you need HC to ask for help with or when he verbalizes it to the field, is it assumed at that point if you disagree you should discuss?
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Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 01:11pm
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It's the Look Back Rule, not hesitation. To paraphrase, the rule says when the pitcher has the ball in the circle and is not attempting a play on any runner. All runners on base, must stay on base. Any runner off base must immediately return to prior base or proceed to next base. They are allowed to stop once, but must immediately go to one base or the other.

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Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 01:46pm
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When a batter receives a base on balls, and the ball is in the circle, any other baserunners may be off their respective bases until the walked batter touches 1B, at which time they must return non-stop to their base, or proceed non-stop to the next base.

If a baserunner is already standing on her base when the walked batter touches 1B, that baserunner may not leave the base.

The walked batter may round 1B and proceed any distance toward 2B. She is entitled to her 1 stop between the bases, after which she must return non-stop to 1B or proceed non-stop to 2B.
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Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
When a batter receives a base on balls, and the ball is in the circle, any other baserunners may be off their respective bases until the walked batter touches 1B, at which time they must return non-stop to their base, or proceed non-stop to the next base.

If a baserunner is already standing on her base when the walked batter touches 1B, that baserunner may not leave the base.

The walked batter may round 1B and proceed any distance toward 2B. She is entitled to her 1 stop between the bases, after which she must return non-stop to 1B or proceed non-stop to 2B.
Hitting 3 nails on the head all at once.
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Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 03:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parrothead View Post
* Expectations if you disagree with partners rule interpretation that he says outloud? Is that something you need HC to ask for help with or when he verbalizes it to the field, is it assumed at that point if you disagree you should discuss?
We never initiate a change of a call if not the responsible umpire.

We will provide info if the responsible umpire asks; regardless of their own initiative or a coach asking the responsible umpire.

We would never do this.
"After the game he said he did not see rule the way partner ruled on the field."
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Old Mon Jun 10, 2019, 10:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
When a batter receives a base on balls, and the ball is in the circle, any other baserunners may be off their respective bases until the walked batter touches 1B, at which time they must return non-stop to their base, or proceed non-stop to the next base.

If a baserunner is already standing on her base when the walked batter touches 1B, that baserunner may not leave the base.

The walked batter may round 1B and proceed any distance toward 2B. She is entitled to her 1 stop between the bases, after which she must return non-stop to 1B or proceed non-stop to 2B.
All of this is true with ONE and only one caveat -- In PGF, playing under NFHS rules, the following (rare) rule comes into play: NFHS 8-7-4:

Responsibilities of a batter-runner after completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the 16-foot pitching circle, including a base on balls or a dropped third strike are as follows:

a) A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but must then immediately, without stopping, return to first or attempt to advance to second base.
b) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and immediately stops, must then return non-stop to first or attempt to advance to second base.
c) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and moves directly toward second base and stops is committed to second and must attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
d) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second base is committed to first and must return to first base.
e) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, and turns right, is committed to first base and must return to first base.

PENALTY: The ball is dead. "No Pitch" is declared when applicable, and the runner is out. (continues with LBR rule)

I post this, because this is the ONLY TIME, in any code to my knowledge, where it actually matters what direction the BR turns after passing 1B. The ball has to be in the circle, and following that the BR has to over-run 1B.
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Last edited by teebob21; Tue Jun 11, 2019 at 12:22pm. Reason: corrected a typo
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Old Tue Jun 11, 2019, 10:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
All of this is true with ONE and only one caveat -- In PGF, playing under NFHS rules, the following (rare) rule comes into play: NFHS 8-7-4:

Responsibilities of a batter-runner after completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the 16-foot pitching circle, including a base on balls or a dropped third strike are as follows:

a) A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but must then immediately, without stopping, return to first or attempt to advance to second base.
b) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and immediately stops, must then return non-stop to first or attempt to advance to second base.
c) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and moves directly toward second base and stops is committed to second and must attempt to advance non-stop to second base.
d) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, turns left and moves back toward the infield in any direction except directly toward second based is committed to first and must return to second base.
e) A batter-runner who overruns first base toward right field, and turns right, is committed to first base and must return to first base.

PENALTY: The ball is dead. "No Pitch" is declared when applicable, and the runner is out. (continues with LBR rule)

I post this, because this is the ONLY TIME, in any code to my knowledge, where it actually matters what direction the BR turns after passing 1B. The ball has to be in the circle, and following that the BR has to over-run 1B.
Hey TB, I don't know if you copy/pasted the above or you typed it in.

Can you confirm the wording I colored in RED above?

Thanx.
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Old Tue Jun 11, 2019, 10:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Hey TB, I don't know if you copy/pasted the above or you typed it in.

Can you confirm the wording I colored in RED above?

Thanx.
It would be "first".
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Old Tue Jun 11, 2019, 12:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Hey TB, I don't know if you copy/pasted the above or you typed it in.

Can you confirm the wording I colored in RED above?

Thanx.
I typed it. I typo'd it.
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Old Tue Jun 11, 2019, 01:30pm
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Not that rare for me unfortunately... I have to enforce 8.7.T (i believe that's what it is in USA) at least twice a season... usually a perfectly laid-down bunt that they just toss to the pitcher without making a play on BR... BR blasts through 1B, trots back and decides to break for 2B...
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Old Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Not that rare for me unfortunately... I have to enforce 8.7.T (i believe that's what it is in USA) at least twice a season... usually a perfectly laid-down bunt that they just toss to the pitcher without making a play on BR... BR blasts through 1B, trots back and decides to break for 2B...
So in this scenario, does it matter what happens first? In other words:

A. BR overruns first base. Ball goes to the pitcher in the circle before the BR makes her turn and heads back to first base.

B. BR overruns first base. Ball goes to the pitcher in the circle after the BR makes her turn and heads back to first base.

I'm sure that for "A", the BR would be out if she's heading towards first and then makes a break for second. But if the BR is already heading towards first and then the ball goes into the circle, doesn't the BR still have her one stop to make and then continue to first or head to second?

I must admit, I made this call during a HS playoff game last month. BR overran first as she easily beat out a bunt, turned right to come back, and then I saw the first base coach look over at the third base coach for a signal. The ball was in the circle, so I continued to watch what was going to happen. First base coach said something to the BR, and the BR continued to the bag, stopped short of it, then took off for second. I called Dead Ball and rang her up.

Third base coach came over to me and asked why I made that call, and I told her once the ball is in the circle and the BR is heading back toward first base, she's committed there and cannot take off for second. She replied that as long as the BR doesn't go all the way back to and touch first base, she can take off for second. I told her that was the college rule, but not the high school rule. She said her team had been executing that play all regular season, and I was the first to make the call. I told her to read the LBR in the book about the BR's responsibilities when she overruns first base. She said she would and get back to me. She never did.

But as I thought about it later on, I wondered if I should've noted the timing between when the ball entered the circle and when the BR made her turn at first to come back. I didn't notice it during the game, and I think it makes a difference.
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Old Wed Jun 12, 2019, 01:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
So in this scenario, does it matter what happens first? In other words:

A. BR overruns first base. Ball goes to the pitcher in the circle before the BR makes her turn and heads back to first base.

B. BR overruns first base. Ball goes to the pitcher in the circle after the BR makes her turn and heads back to first base.

I'm sure that for "A", the BR would be out if she's heading towards first and then makes a break for second. But if the BR is already heading towards first and then the ball goes into the circle, doesn't the BR still have her one stop to make and then continue to first or head to second?



But as I thought about it later on, I wondered if I should've noted the timing between when the ball entered the circle and when the BR made her turn at first to come back. I didn't notice it during the game, and I think it makes a difference.
The book says the runner's responsibilities are "while the pitcher has control ..."
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Old Wed Jun 12, 2019, 02:27pm
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Manny, I've raised this exact question in the past on this here forum. The consensus, as I remember it, is when the BR reaches the end of her overrun and turns around, that constitutes the "one stop" entitled to her in the LBR.

Although it's not spelled out in the book, seems to me if she's already headed back to the base, and THEN the ball arrives in the circle, she has not used her one stop yet...

It's almost like if a runner is heading back to 3B, then the ball gets to the circle, is she not permitted to stop and head non-stop for home?
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Old Wed Jun 12, 2019, 02:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
The consensus, as I remember it, is when the BR reaches the end of her overrun and turns around, that constitutes the "one stop" entitled to her in the LBR.
I hope that is incorrect; unless you mean the runner stops at the turnaround.
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Old Wed Jun 12, 2019, 11:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Although it's not spelled out in the book, seems to me if she's already headed back to the base, and THEN the ball arrives in the circle, she has not used her one stop yet...

It's almost like if a runner is heading back to 3B, then the ball gets to the circle, is she not permitted to stop and head non-stop for home?
This is a good point. In NCAA, it's explicitly spelled out that the return to 1B is live until she gets there. Fed/USA are clear in that this is not permitted. But wait: If a BR is moving to 1B from an overrun to RF when the ball reaches the circle, should she not be permitted her one stop and "decide"? LBR (and its associated one stop) is not in effect until the ball is in the circle in the possession and control of F1 (definitions of possession/control may vary between codes). This is an....interesting point. Rule dictates that even if she is on the move when the ball returns to F1 in the circle that the BR cannot advance to 2B after establishing a path back to 1B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
I hope that is incorrect; unless you mean the runner stops at the turnaround.
If the ball is in the circle in possession of F1, then yes, the turnaround is a stop since most runners do an about-face when turning around. Of course, continuing to move forward while turning is not a stop. At that point, we get to make the big bucks and determine where and which base the BR was moving towards.
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Last edited by teebob21; Wed Jun 12, 2019 at 11:33pm.
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