The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 08:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
How to rule on plays

This play is in the USA Softball August Plays and Clarifications.

"Play: R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B and both attempt to steal on the pitch to B3. The pitch is called a strike and F2 throws to 3B from the set position. B3
a) does not move and is watching R2 steal 2B
b) moves to get out of the way of the thrown ball.
In both a) and b) the ball hits B3 on the side of the helmet and rolls into the dugout for a dead ball. What is the ruling?

Ruling: In both a) and b) the umpire must judge if B3 actively hindered F2 from making a play. Just being hit by the thrown ball does not constitute interference.
If the umpire judges that B3 actively hindered F3 then we have a dead ball and interference, B3 is out and all runners return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.
Rule 7, Section 6S Effect."

The ruling wording implies that "does not move and is watching R2" might still be interference without giving any criteria for determining "actively hindered".

As clarification, I would have said something like "if the batter moved from their normal stance" or, in the case of a swing, "if the batter moved after completing the swing and recovering".

Do you agree that the ruling needs more clarity?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 12:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
It does no good to issue a rule clarification that pretty much simply repeats exactly what the rule book says. This was just argued on a Facebook forum after a girl in the LL world series stepped back and got hit with the throw and there was no call. There were several arguments that the word actively means the interference has to be intentional. The clarification also seems to hang everything on that same word. Someone needs to define exactly what the word actively means as it pertains to the rule. I have always been told it is any movement by the batter while in the box that puts them in the way of the throw. A large number of respondents in that thread insist the box belongs to the batter and it is the catchers responsibility to work around the batter wherever they may move within the box.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 01:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,236
Think of it this way - should you be able to get an out merely by hitting a player with the ball (like in kickball)? The player needs some protection from that.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
It does no good to issue a rule clarification that pretty much simply repeats exactly what the rule book says. This was just argued on a Facebook forum after a girl in the LL world series stepped back and got hit with the throw and there was no call. There were several arguments that the word actively means the interference has to be intentional. The clarification also seems to hang everything on that same word. Someone needs to define exactly what the word actively means as it pertains to the rule. I have always been told it is any movement by the batter while in the box that puts them in the way of the throw. A large number of respondents in that thread insist the box belongs to the batter and it is the catchers responsibility to work around the batter wherever they may move within the box.
Here are my opinions:

" actively means the interference has to be intentional. " one wrong
" the box belongs to the batter and it is the catchers responsibility to work around the batter" two wrong (see below)

"movement by the batter while in the box that puts them in the way of the throw" correct, except the natural course of a swing or avoiding the pitch
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 02:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
BUT, my point is not about the rules themselves, JUST whether a more thorough clarification was needed or at least helpful.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:13pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Yes, the clarification needs much further clarification because it doesn't say anything.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 04:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
Think of it this way - should you be able to get an out merely by hitting a player with the ball (like in kickball)? The player needs some protection from that.
The batter is protected as long as they remain stationary in the batters box. They start moving around in the box or step out and get in the way it's interference.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 05:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
BUT, my point is not about the rules themselves, JUST whether a more thorough clarification was needed or at least helpful.
Agree completely with your assessment the answer needed much more clarification. The same is true about the very next play:

"With less than two outs and 1B is unoccupied. B2 swings and misses strike three. F2 misses the ball and it bounds off the catcher and under the feet of B2 on their way to 1B. B2 unintentionally kicks the ball when out of the batter's box. What is the call?"
They start the response with "If the umpire judged that the kicking of the ball......" It would have been helpful if they gave some guidance on how to make that judgement. What guidelines should the umpire use to make that judgement?

Definitely more information would have been helpful for both of these plays.

Last edited by josephrt1; Thu Aug 23, 2018 at 05:04pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 23, 2018, 11:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
I don't see the issue. "Actively hindered" was a last minute change when they moved to remove "intentional" from most rules. I wasn't a fan of the removal for the sole reason that some umpires would start calling everything that didn't seem right to them as INT.

At the time, their reasoning was that the word "intentional" wasn't part of the definition. I thought they were out of their mind since the "intent" wasn't supposed to be part of the rule, but a condition under which the rule is applied.

As I understand it, the "actively hindered" was added after a RUIC pointed out the catcher could just clock the batter for an INT call. I believe part of the reason it was removed was because there were umpires justifying a "no call" with a "I can't read the guy's mind" excuse. And yes I have heard that from umpires in real life and in social media.

"Actively hindering" simply means the batter acted in a manner which hindered the catcher from making a play on a runner. Finishing up a swing or staying still in the box to allow the catcher to make a throw is not actively hindering the catcher.

One of the comments made during the council meeting was that only the wording was changing, but the manner in which the INT rules applied should remain as before the change.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 24, 2018, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I don't see the issue. "Actively hindered" was a last minute change when they moved to remove "intentional" from most rules. I wasn't a fan of the removal for the sole reason that some umpires would start calling everything that didn't seem right to them as INT.

At the time, their reasoning was that the word "intentional" wasn't part of the definition. I thought they were out of their mind since the "intent" wasn't supposed to be part of the rule, but a condition under which the rule is applied.

As I understand it, the "actively hindered" was added after a RUIC pointed out the catcher could just clock the batter for an INT call. I believe part of the reason it was removed was because there were umpires justifying a "no call" with a "I can't read the guy's mind" excuse. And yes I have heard that from umpires in real life and in social media.

"Actively hindering" simply means the batter acted in a manner which hindered the catcher from making a play on a runner. Finishing up a swing or staying still in the box to allow the catcher to make a throw is not actively hindering the catcher.

One of the comments made during the council meeting was that only the wording was changing, but the manner in which the INT rules applied should remain as before the change.
I've seen you run through this history before and I think I get it but I'm not super confident. As I understood the rules, a above is not interference. Standing still is not actively hindering the catcher. B moving to get out of the way which results in getting in the way is actively hindering the catcher.
But that's not really what the "clarification" says. It says judgment needed beyond the description in both cases.
If my understanding is wrong, could you give me an example in a that would cause you to judge interference and one in b that would cause you not to?
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 24, 2018, 12:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
The batter is protected as long as they remain stationary in the batters box. They start moving around in the box or step out and get in the way it's interference.
That's not what the ruling in the OP says. Case a) has the batter not moving and the ruling says interference inn umpire judgment.
__________________
Rich Ives
Different does not equate to wrong
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 24, 2018, 12:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
That's not what the ruling in the OP says. Case a) has the batter not moving and the ruling says interference inn umpire judgment.
How does the bolded happen?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 24, 2018, 08:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives View Post
That's not what the ruling in the OP says. Case a) has the batter not moving and the ruling says interference inn umpire judgment.
I think this pretty much covers it. "Just being hit by the thrown ball does not constitute interference."
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 24, 2018, 08:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I've seen you run through this history before and I think I get it but I'm not super confident. As I understood the rules, a above is not interference. Standing still is not actively hindering the catcher. B moving to get out of the way which results in getting in the way is actively hindering the catcher.
But that's not really what the "clarification" says. It says judgment needed beyond the description in both cases.
If my understanding is wrong, could you give me an example in a that would cause you to judge interference and one in b that would cause you not to?
I assume it was stated as such because that is what the rule states. There are probably some who would think that "not moving" refers to the feet. But what if the upper body moves? Maybe the batter crouches down and is now hit by the ball or the ball hits the bat. Or the area the catcher was going to throw is now occupied by a knee, arms or ass. That could be INT even though the batter didn't actually move from his/her position.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 27, 2018, 07:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,118
1) If a batter didn't move, how in the world could she "actively interfere?
2) Since she is not required to move unless there is a play at the plate, hoe could it be INT to stand still?

Moving=active.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Three plays AremRed Basketball 8 Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:16am
ASA - June Rule Clarifications and Plays NCASAUmp Softball 1 Wed Jun 15, 2011 02:27pm
May ASA Rule Clarifications and Plays Tru_in_Blu Softball 11 Sun May 10, 2009 09:58pm
Two KCI plays OverAndBack Football 5 Mon Oct 06, 2008 03:28pm
How would you rule on these plays. gordon30307 Baseball 45 Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:28am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:21am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1