USA lightning guidelines

[Tru_in_Blu]

Last night was my turn in the lightning discussion. We suspended a game due to lightning and thunder. It ultimately was decided to continue the game at a later date due to the field lights automatically turning off at a set time.

Anyhoos, my partner and I engaged in a discussion regarding the guidelines. He claimed that the 30 minute guideline was changed from 15 minutes sometime in the last 10 to 12 years. I didn't think that was accurate and as far as I knew it has been 30 minutes as far back as I can remember.

Anyone have the history on that matter?

Also, given his opinion on the 15 minute "change", he stated that individual leagues could/would/should have the ability to alter that rule/guideline to whatever they wanted. And furthermore, that if enough impetus came from the rank and file, USA would be forced to change the guideline to what the masses demanded.

My position was that our local UIC, state UIC, regional UIC would never agree to teams/leagues watering down any safety guidelines, particularly something as dangerous as lightning. Also, that we (as USA Softball independent contractors) would not be covered under insurance if we chose to work those leagues/games.

Like most local venues across the country, we don't have sophisticated lightning detection equipment. Many players, coaches, umpires have smart phones that can track clouds and cells, but perhaps not high-tech detection apps.

Thoughts?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Last night was my turn in the lightning discussion. We suspended a game due to lightning and thunder. It ultimately was decided to continue the game at a later date due to the field lights automatically turning off at a set time.

Anyhoos, my partner and I engaged in a discussion regarding the guidelines. He claimed that the 30 minute guideline was changed from 15 minutes sometime in the last 10 to 12 years. I didn't think that was accurate and as far as I knew it has been 30 minutes as far back as I can remember.

Anyone have the history on that matter?

Also, given his opinion on the 15 minute "change", he stated that individual leagues could/would/should have the ability to alter that rule/guideline to whatever they wanted. And furthermore, that if enough impetus came from the rank and file, USA would be forced to change the guideline to what the masses demanded.

My position was that our local UIC, state UIC, regional UIC would never agree to teams/leagues watering down any safety guidelines, particularly something as dangerous as lightning. Also, that we (as USA Softball independent contractors) would not be covered under insurance if we chose to work those leagues/games.

Like most local venues across the country, we don't have sophisticated lightning detection equipment. Many players, coaches, umpires have smart phones that can track clouds and cells, but perhaps not high-tech detection apps.

Thoughts?

It has changed over the years. If I remember correctly, it was 10, 20 then 30 minutes. Liability is the issue, so the masses will not have shit to do with any change. OTOH, I don't believe that time should be written in stone, and it is not.

First story:

Men's A Industrial National in Lakeland, FL about 20 years ago. While on the fields, we all were instructed to get the teams off the fields immediately. Lots of weird looks, but herded everyone off in spite of there being no sign of a storm. About 5 minutes later, we got clobbered with rain, thunder and lightning. 10 minutes later, clear sky and were told to inform the teams we were starting up in 10-15 minute. Teams were on the fields warming up in less than 5 minutes. To me, that was impressive.

Second story:

A few years back as the UIC of the JO 18U States, we got a surprised storm including lightning, but very light rain. While there was still some spot lightning visible and only a drop here or there, I talked to my PU for his opinion since he was ATC and a certified weather observer. He asked if I wanted him to make the "call". He was referring to the control tower where he worked about 30 miles to the North.

Just to make sure everyone got in on this, I asked both coaches to come to the plate and handed my cell phone to the PU. The ATC he got happened to be a softball parent and knew exactly where the field was located. He put the phone on speaker and asked for a weather report. The ATC stated that we were clear and will see a passenger jet over us in about 30 seconds. The coaches were impressed when a plane flew overhead. He told us we were clear of any danger even though lightning could be seen to the North.

I asked the coaches if they had any problem starting up as soon as possible and they couldn't have been happier to get going. A couple of the parents seemed to have an issue with that decision. One mother (I assume) tracked me down and wouldn't let it go telling me how I'm placing her daughter and everyone else in danger. Being the nice guy I am I explained what occurred, but that didn't seem to satisfy her and just got louder. I reiterated that all is clear. She threatened to call the head of ASA because she could still see lightning in the distance. I told her to feel free to make that call. I doubt she made that call, but ASA added an exception to the 30 minute "rule" if there is "an advance lightning detection device in use". I think an air traffic control tower could meet that exception

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I assume that everyone has heard of NOCSAE which is a non-profit organization which tests and sets standards for sports helmets.

There is a non-profit organization that sets the standards with regard to lightning. The organization is the U.S. National Lightning Safety Institute (NLSI).

The 30 minute from lightning/thunder requirement that has been adopted by every StateHSAA, the NCAA, the NAIA, USA Softball, USSSA, etc. is the standard safety requirement recommended by the NLSI. See Item (4) on Lightning Safety Tips - National Lightning Safety Institute

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

I work USA tournaments in a sports complex that uses a weather system to track storms. There have been a couple of times where a storm will approach with visible lightning, and the siren that can be heard throughout the complex will not sound.

One time as BU, I saw a bolt of lightning and then less than 20 seconds later heard the thunder, but again, no siren. I cleared the field, but none of the other three fields in our cloverleaf were leaving. As the teams on our field were moving out of their dugouts and my partner and I were heading for the scorer's building, a tournament director shouted at us to get the teams back onto the field because the siren had not sounded. I told him what I saw and heard, and he didn't care.

We returned to the field, and I saw a couple of more bolts and heard more thunder. Finally about four or five minutes later, the siren finally sounded, but not before the winds picked up as the storm was practically on top of us.

The policy in that complex is to wait until the "resume" siren sounds. I have no idea if the system waits any amount of time before the siren sounds, or if it is simply based upon the distance of any detected lightning strikes. All I do know is that we've been sent back to the fields at various different times after the storm passes.

I just don't have a warm fuzzy on the reliability of that automated system. It causes tournament staff to blow off the "if you see/hear it, clear it" mindset, even when it's obvious that the time between lightning and thunder indicates the storm is much less than ten miles away. I think we should assume the system may not be working properly, and err on the side of caution.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I work USA tournaments in a sports complex that uses a weather system to track storms. There have been a couple of times where a storm will approach with visible lightning, and the siren that can be heard throughout the complex will not sound.

One time as BU, I saw a bolt of lightning and then less than 20 seconds later heard the thunder, but again, no siren. I cleared the field, but none of the other three fields in our cloverleaf were leaving. As the teams on our field were moving out of their dugouts and my partner and I were heading for the scorer's building, a tournament director shouted at us to get the teams back onto the field because the siren had not sounded. I told him what I saw and heard, and he didn't care.

We returned to the field, and I saw a couple of more bolts and heard more thunder. Finally about four or five minutes later, the siren finally sounded, but not before the winds picked up as the storm was practically on top of us.

The policy in that complex is to wait until the "resume" siren sounds. I have no idea if the system waits any amount of time before the siren sounds, or if it is simply based upon the distance of any detected lightning strikes. All I do know is that we've been sent back to the fields at various different times after the storm passes.

I just don't have a warm fuzzy on the reliability of that automated system. It causes tournament staff to blow off the "if you see/hear it, clear it" mindset, even when it's obvious that the time between lightning and thunder indicates the storm is much less than ten miles away. I think we should assume the system may not be working properly, and err on the side of caution.

I would've headed to my car, not back to the field. TD's motivations aren't always based on what's best for the teams/people involved.

NFHS has changed their guidance somewhat this year. Now lightning in the distance after dark that isn't cloud to ground and doesn't have audible thunder can be left to the judgment of those in charge. Good change, IMO. But I won't consider shortening the 30 minute interval once we come off, no matter how much someone else stomps his feet.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to jump into the discussion from a personal point of view.

My sister and I started playing golf at the same time when I was 9 and she was 5 in the Summer of 1961. I played competitively until the boys started coming in 1990 and my sister played on the women's golf team at the University of Miami (FL) in the mid-1970s. We have always taken lightening VERY seriously. And why have we taken it seriously? In 1965 at a local country club where one my future H.S. golf teammates belonged a foursome and their four caddies decided to continue playing in a thunderstorm. The result was two members and two caddies seriously injured and two members and two caddies DEAD!

The lightning detection systems that many golf clubs and athletic fields are great. I was officiating a H.S. soccer game at a school in Michigan one year when the AD stopped the game because the school's lightning detection system had detected lightning even though it was a clear day. Mark, Jr., and I have twice had games that we were umpiring when the game site's lightning detection system signal went off on a near cloudless day. We cleared the field and waited for the all clear signal. BUT actually seeing lightning or actually hearing thunder trumps a lightning detection system that does not detect lightning when it is confirmed visually.

Lightning can strike from as far away as 15 miles even when the storm has passed through. Rich has commented upon and NFHS recommendation with regard to cloud to cloud lightning. I do not officiate football like Rich and can only assume that this is something that will be discussed at baseball and softball meetings in the Spring for the benefit of we umpires. Hopefully, Rich can elaborate more on the recommendation. That said, cloud to cloud lightning send me off the baseball or softball diamonds.

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BUT actually seeing lightning or actually hearing thunder trumps a lightning detection system that does not detect lightning when it is confirmed visually.

And my experience was the exact opposite. I clearly saw and heard it, but I was told that we keep playing until the siren sounds. It floors me that an official involving a game being played by young children would have that attitude.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich has commented upon and NFHS recommendation with regard to cloud to cloud lightning. I do not officiate football like Rich and can only assume that this is something that will be discussed at baseball and softball meetings in the Spring for the benefit of we umpires. Hopefully, Rich can elaborate more on the recommendation. That said, cloud to cloud lightning send me off the baseball or softball diamonds.

Well, I'm no meteorologist, but to me, lightning is lightning. Can someone unequivocally say that if you see so-called cloud-to-cloud or intracloud lightning, there is no chance for cloud-to-ground lightning to take place as well?

Now, if you're talking about sheet lightning where you can't even hear any thunder, yeah, that might be something you can play through since it's so far away. But where I live, there's just too many hills and trees to see that happening.

[Mountaincoach]

True story--Local certified, trained umpire here with the worst combination--tremendous arrogance and narcissism, but no common sense or interpersonal skills. The other umpires literally refuse to work with him. Beautiful spring day several years ago. I was coaching a Little League team. I mean we had a completely blue sky except for one cute little white cloud off in the distance. You know that "boom" sound that comes from the shaking of an empty tailgate on a dump truck when the truck hits a bump? (if not, just trust me when I say it's a pretty good boom) We all were very used to that sound because a big bridge was about a 1/4 mile away. I heard the truck hit the bump on the bridge and make that sound. Umpire immediately throws his hands up, screams TIME!!, and sends all the kids to the dugouts. I walked over and whispered "Dude, what the hell are you doing?" He said "I heard thunder. Automatic 30 minute delay." I whispered "You heard a dump truck on the highway, and, secondly, aren't you supposed to be looking for lightning?" He said "Oh" and put everybody back on the field. All of the parents were like "What the heck was that about?"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And my experience was the exact opposite. I clearly saw and heard it, but I was told that we keep playing until the siren sounds. It floors me that an official involving a game being played by young children would have that attitude.

What does the age have to do with it? For that matter, why would anyone keep a team on the field when it is unsafe? Don't care what the TD or anyone else states, the umpire crew is ultimately responsible for what happens on that field