The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 11:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
Is a batter's lost shoe detached offensive equipment?

R1 on first, no outs. BR comes to the plate with an untied shoe. BR hits a soft base hit to left-center. While running to first, she loses the untied shoe between first and home.

BR rounds the bag at 1B aggressively and F8 fields the ball. F8 overthrows F3 at 1B while R1 is advancing to 3B. The ball hits the dugout fencing and rebounds off, hitting the shoe, causing F2 to chase the ball down in foul territory off the shoe deflection. (*) R1 rounds 3B and scores following a throw from F2 to F1 covering; single-shoe BR reaches 2B but is put out at 3B.

Third World Warning. This play actually happened, although in my game, there was no play at home or 3B. Everything after the (*) is hypothetical.

Is the shoe detached offensive equipment? Does play stand or are we playing under a delayed dead ball after the ball hits the shoe? If DDB, where do we place the runners and are there any outs? Is there a difference in this scenario between USA/Fed/NCAA?
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 01:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 38
Coming from baseball only, I don't think this is any different than a bat discarded laying there, or thrown catcher's helmet.

But I will have B1 tie their shoes from now on.

Side note from doing basketball for the first time in 15 years ... what is the average time a kid's shoe stays tied? 10 minutes?
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 07:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
R1 on first, no outs. BR comes to the plate with an untied shoe. BR hits a soft base hit to left-center. While running to first, she loses the untied shoe between first and home.

BR rounds the bag at 1B aggressively and F8 fields the ball. F8 overthrows F3 at 1B while R1 is advancing to 3B. The ball hits the dugout fencing and rebounds off, hitting the shoe, causing F2 to chase the ball down in foul territory off the shoe deflection. ... snip ...

Is the shoe detached offensive equipment? Does play stand or are we playing under a delayed dead ball after the ball hits the shoe? If DDB, where do we place the runners and are there any outs? Is there a difference in this scenario between USA/Fed/NCAA?
USA & NFHS
If the ball is blocked, it is IDB, not DDB.

Removed incorrect opinion.
See below "any part of the uniform which inadvertently became detached during the ongoing play to be part of the field and not available for a blocked ball or int call "
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.

Last edited by CecilOne; Fri Apr 06, 2018 at 10:42am.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 10:13am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
This really boils down to the definition of "blocked ball", and how loose equipment is handled. When it comes to loose equipment that belongs to the offense, that is really limited to equipment that is not involved in the game. So a loose bat in front of a dugout, or a loose glove sitting in foul territory by the offensive team's bullpen, etc., would be susceptible to a blocked ball call.

But if the equipment is involved in the game, then a ball touching that equipment is not considered blocked unless the offense does something intentional. So when the batter discards her bat, or a runner's batting helmet flies off while running the bases, those aren't considered loose equipment. I would say the same applies to a runner's shoe that inadvertently comes off.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 10:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
R1 on first, no outs. BR comes to the plate with an untied shoe. BR hits a soft base hit to left-center. While running to first, she loses the untied shoe between first and home.

BR rounds the bag at 1B aggressively and F8 fields the ball. F8 overthrows F3 at 1B while R1 is advancing to 3B. The ball hits the dugout fencing and rebounds off, hitting the shoe, causing F2 to chase the ball down in foul territory off the shoe deflection. (*) R1 rounds 3B and scores following a throw from F2 to F1 covering; single-shoe BR reaches 2B but is put out at 3B.

Third World Warning. This play actually happened, although in my game, there was no play at home or 3B. Everything after the (*) is hypothetical.

Is the shoe detached offensive equipment? Does play stand or are we playing under a delayed dead ball after the ball hits the shoe? If DDB, where do we place the runners and are there any outs? Is there a difference in this scenario between USA/Fed/NCAA?
Based on USA RS 17, I would consider any part of the uniform which inadvertently became detached during the ongoing play to be part of the field and not available for a blocked ball or int call
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 10:19am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
I should add that in the NCAA, there is an actual rule, 9.7, that defines Equipment Blocked Ball. It says:

Quote:
9.7.1 No loose equipment (that is, gloves/mitts, hats, helmets, jackets, balls, on-deck batter’s bats), miscellaneous items, or detached parts of a player’s uniform, other than that being legally used in the game at the time, should be within playable territory as it could cause a blocked ball. Official equipment that may be within playable territory with no effect includes the batter’s bat, the catcher’s mask or helmet, umpire paraphernalia, and any helmet that has inadvertently fallen off an offensive or defensive player during the course of play.
There is no mention of a player's shoes as official equipment that would have no effect on a ball that contacts it. So in NCAA play, your scenario would result in a blocked ball. I guess they feel that shoes be designed to not come off a player's feet.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 10:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny A View Post

There is no mention of a player's shoes as official equipment that would have no effect on a ball that contacts it. So in NCAA play, your scenario would result in a blocked ball. I guess they feel that shoes be designed to not come off a player's feet.
I seriously doubt the pieces of equipment listed are not meant to be specific. What is the difference between a helmet inadvertently coming off an active runner and a shoe inadvertently coming off an active runner?

Then again, considering the source of the list, you never know
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 01:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
I seriously doubt the pieces of equipment listed are not meant to be specific. What is the difference between a helmet inadvertently coming off an active runner and a shoe inadvertently coming off an active runner?

Then again, considering the source of the list, you never know
You got to remember this is NCAA he is talking about. The same ones that allowed a pitcher to tape an odor eater to her shoe and call it a toe plate so she wouldn't get called for leaping. The rule book didn't expressly forbid it, so therefore it was legal. Took them a week or so to come to their senses.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 01:25pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkbump View Post
you got to remember this is ncaa he is talking about. The same ones that allowed a pitcher to tape an odor eater to her shoe and call it a toe plate so she wouldn't get called for leaping. The rule book didn't expressly forbid it, so therefore it was legal. Took them a week or so to come to their senses.
Tried to attach just a smiley face, but I kept getting auto-corrected.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker

Last edited by Manny A; Fri Apr 06, 2018 at 01:28pm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Detached equipment (NCAA) jmkupka Softball 12 Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:22am
Detached equipment (OBR) David Emerling Baseball 30 Fri Sep 28, 2012 03:00pm
Detached Player Equipment MikeStrybel Baseball 3 Mon Dec 12, 2011 07:55pm
detached equipment ggk Baseball 17 Sun Jan 20, 2008 01:21am
Detached Equipment rwest Softball 6 Fri May 05, 2006 01:09pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:39am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1