OBS on BR, a subsequent play, and BR put out at 2B

[teebob21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hvkBooFl4k

I just found this tonight. Maybe it's been posted before, but if this is a softball game, I have an out on the BR at 2B and the runner who crossed the plate scores. Had there not been a throw on a runner, BR would have never tried for second, nor reached it. The play on the scoring runner is one of the exceptions that cancels OBS. Easy peasy, IMO. No reason for an EJ here.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hvkBooFl4k

I just found this tonight. Maybe it's been posted before, but if this is a softball game, I have an out on the BR at 2B and the runner who crossed the plate scores. Had there not been a throw on a runner, BR would have never tried for second, nor reached it. The play on the scoring runner is one of the exceptions that cancels OBS. Easy peasy, IMO. No reason for an EJ here.

I agree, run score, BR out @2nd

Unless the assistance is coming out to announce the intent to protest, he isn't staying around long either.

[robbie]

Second and third and no out.
If not for the obstruction, BR definitely proceeds to 2B.

In NSA, same result but immediate dead ball on the obstruction.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Then there must be a recent change.

2018 NSA FP Rules

When a fielder obstructs a baserunner from making a base, (including a
run-down) unless the fielder is trying to field a batted ball or has the ball
ready for a tag.
EFFECT: When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call
“OBSTRUCTION” and give a delayed dead ball signal for obstruction.
NOTE: Failure of the umpire to call Obstruction DOES NOT negate
the Obstruction.
1) If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base
they would have reached had there not been obstruction, a dead
ball is called and the obstructed runner and each runner affected
by the obstruction shall be awarded the base(s) in the umpire’s
judgment, the runner(s) would have reached had there not been
obstruction. An obstructed runner cannot be called out between
the bases where they were obstructed
EXCEPTIONS:
a) When an obstructed runner safely obtains or returns to the
base that he/she would have been awarded in the umpires
judgment had there been no obstruction, and there is a
subsequent play on another runner, the obstructed runner
no longer has protection by the umpire between the bases in
which the obstruction occurred and may be put out.
b) When properly appealed for missing or leaving a base

2018 NSA SP Rules have nearly identical wording. Both seem to be the same as USA

[robbie]

Not the most logical rules lay out to follow however this is addressed in:
Rule 9, Section 1, p
"The ball is dead and not in play:
When a play is being made on an obstructed runner, or if the batter-runned is obstructed before he/she reaches 1st base."

Therefore dead ball at time of obstruction and consequently subsequent action did not happen.

On this play, my judgement award is 2nd and 3rd.

[BlueDevilRef]

If by that ruling Robbie, which I won’t argue, I can’t see putting BR past first. OBS made ball dead? BR gets 1st imo

[teebob21]

Ick. I don't work NSA and maybe that's OK. I don't like rulesets with contradictions or weird exceptions. NCAA is already bendy enough with their DDB option-play rules and near-contradictions for me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by robbie

Not the most logical rules lay out to follow however this is addressed in:
Rule 9, Section 1, p
"The ball is dead and not in play:
When a play is being made on an obstructed runner, or if the batter-runned is obstructed before he/she reaches 1st base."

Therefore dead ball at time of obstruction and consequently subsequent action did not happen.

On this play, my judgement award is 2nd and 3rd.

IMO, you are misapplying the rule based upon a description of when a ball is declared dead.

In the OP, there was no play on an OBS runner until the attempted play at 2B which occurred after the previous runner scored.

NSA FP 2018 RULES

[Manny A]

What a fustercluck that was.

First and foremost, this shouldn't have been obstruction. F3 came off the bag and was in the act of receiving a throw (which still exists in pro baseball as an exception to the obstruction rule), so there shouldn't have been any obstruction. That's probably why U1 didn't call it. Until this year, this would have also been nothing more than a wreck in college softball.

But if there was obstruction, it is what pro rules considers as "Type A", since it occurred on the BR before reaching first base. That's an immediate dead ball, and runners are awarded bases that the umpires feel they would have achieved had there been no obstruction. I don't see how R1, who came all the way around from first to score on the play, should have been returned to third. I guess the crew decided that had U1 called obstruction and an immediate dead ball, they would've reasonably put R1 at third instead of letting him score.

I agree from a softball perspective that this would have been a run scored and the BR out at second.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Manny A

What a fustercluck that was.

First and foremost, this shouldn't have been obstruction. F3 came off the bag and was in the act of receiving a throw (which still exists in pro baseball as an exception to the obstruction rule), so there shouldn't have been any obstruction. That's probably why U1 didn't call it. Until this year, this would have also been nothing more than a wreck in college softball.

But if there was obstruction, it is what pro rules considers as "Type A", since it occurred on the BR before reaching first base. That's an immediate dead ball, and runners are awarded bases that the umpires feel they would have achieved had there been no obstruction. I don't see how R1, who came all the way around from first to score on the play, should have been returned to third. I guess the crew decided that had U1 called obstruction and an immediate dead ball, they would've reasonably put R1 at third instead of letting him score.

I agree from a softball perspective that this would have been a run scored and the BR out at second.

Not that it matters, but I don't think that's how the old NCAA rule worked. Had the F3 caught the ball, sure, ATR applied and there was no OBS. But F3 did not have the ball, and was no longer about to receive after it went over his head. Again, not that it matters, but I think this still would have been OBS in NCAA 17.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Not that it matters, but I don't think that's how the old NCAA rule worked. Had the F3 caught the ball, sure, ATR applied and there was no OBS. But F3 did not have the ball, and was no longer about to receive after it went over his head. Again, not that it matters, but I think this still would have been OBS in NCAA 17.

How about the location of the BR?

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

How about the location of the BR?

OBS between HP and 1B, protected to 1B, but not 2B as I see it. Not in the runner's lane, but no runner's lane INT applicable on the play in the video. Or am I misunderstanding your question?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

OBS between HP and 1B, protected to 1B, but not 2B as I see it. Not in the runner's lane, but no runner's lane INT applicable on the play in the video. Or am I misunderstanding your question?

It looks to me that F3 moved into fair territory when he saw the BR nearing. At the same time, the BR clearly left the lane and moved into the path of F3.

I'm not suggesting it SHOULD be INT, just surprised no one raised that possibility. IMO, if the incident occurred prior to the ball getting there, a running lane violation would be a valid call.