NCAA Softball 2 Out indicator

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Read the post I cited and then check to see what the USA umpire's manual has for 1st & 2nd with two outs assigned responsibility and see if Teebob's comment is true.

Yeah, this is a pop quiz

Ok, I'll bite:

Originally Posted by teebob21 Speaking ASA/NFHS, the time play signal isn't even an official thing.

Correct, not listed in official signals (pp 30 -36)

PU responsibilities don't change:

Responsibilities do not change with the number of outs, as mechanics are listed by runners on base without the number of outs as a qualifier.

we've still got primary coverage on the play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield in all codes.

Mostly correct. - PU has primary coverage on "lead runner at 3rd." Where I rate this as "mostly" is the choice to use "first throw." The first throw could be the "last runner" into third which belongs to BU.

Unless you are looking at a different page than 68-69 (FP) or 78 (SP), he is correct (with slight wording modification).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Ok, I'll bite:


Correct, not listed in official signals (pp 30 -36)




Responsibilities do not change with the number of outs, as mechanics are listed by runners on base without the number of outs as a qualifier.



Mostly correct. - PU has primary coverage on "lead runner at 3rd." Where I rate this as "mostly" is the choice to use "first throw." The first throw could be the "last runner" into third which belongs to BU.

Unless you are looking at a different page than 68-69 (FP) or 78 (SP), he is correct (with slight wording modification).

The lead runner wasn't going to 3rd, was she?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The lead runner wasn't going to 3rd, was she?

Yes, seems to be a "hole" in the mechanic. However, the BU's "last runner" statement makes the "middle" runner (the runner starting on first base) belonging to the PU, unless:

There are four times, after the ball has been batted that a base
umpire will make a call at 3B:
1. On the Batter-Runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. On the last runner into 3B.
3. On a lone runner on a fly ball advancement.
4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.
p.57

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.

Which is why I've always been taught that an initial play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield belongs to the PU, unless that play is made on the B/R.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Yes, seems to be a "hole" in the mechanic. However, the BU's "last runner" statement makes the "middle" runner (the runner starting on first base) belonging to the PU, unless:

There are four times, after the ball has been batted that a base
umpire will make a call at 3B:
1. On the Batter-Runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. On the last runner into 3B.
3. On a lone runner on a fly ball advancement.
4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.

Yeah, never cared for this set of absolutes. I am a believer in prioritizing when necessary. I preferred the previous regime's mechanic that the PU has the lead runner and the BU has the rest. That demonstrated the importance they placed on runner closest to the plate.

That said, the field isn't that big for this to be that much of an issue.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

[b]
Yeah, never cared for this set of absolutes. I am a believer in prioritizing when necessary. I preferred the previous regime's mechanic that the PU has the lead runner and the BU has the rest. That demonstrated the importance they placed on runner closest to the plate.

That said, the field isn't that big for this to be that much of an issue.

I think these are wonderful guidelines. Not sure how "previous" you want to get, but these guidelines have been around as long as I have, and I wore an Elbeco for many years.

You say: "prioritizing when necessary" is exactly the point of the fourth guideline. Both PU and BU have to read the throw - does it go to third, does it go home or does it get cut - and then read the play from there. What this prevents is a PU who get so focused on the run scoring that a BU is now stranded. Not to mention the dimensions of the slow pitch field are bigger now (for the typical SP umpire - yes, I know the major/super level was always larger).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

I think these are wonderful guidelines. Not sure how "previous" you want to get, but these guidelines have been around as long as I have, and I wore an Elbeco for many years.

Yep, and I still have some in my closet

You say: "prioritizing when necessary" is exactly the point of the fourth guideline. Both PU and BU have to read the throw - does it go to third, does it go home or does it get cut - and then read the play from there. What this prevents is a PU who get so focused on the run scoring that a BU is now stranded. Not to mention the dimensions of the slow pitch field are bigger now (for the typical SP umpire - yes, I know the major/super level was always larger).

I've worked 80' fields and yes, it takes some adjustment, but is not that bad once it kicks in how far you need to go.

I am referring to prioritizing the runners.

The PU should be focused on the lead runner and the ball. As long as there is the possibility of a play at the plate, the PU must keep a position that will allow him to make that call and the BU must be available to make a call involving any other runner. Even if the PU does head down to 3rd for a call, he cannot just drop the responsibility of the lead runner and must turn his head and look to the plate on an out call as that runner is the most important on the field at that time. Like I said, don't care much for absolutes in this mechanic.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I am referring to prioritizing the runners.

The PU should be focused on the lead runner and the ball.

Actually, no. You read the play, which involves two runners and a throw.

As long as there is the possibility of a play at the plate, the PU must keep a position that will allow him to make that call and the BU must be available to make a call involving any other runner. Even if the PU does head down to 3rd for a call, he cannot just drop the responsibility of the lead runner and must turn his head and look to the plate on an out call as that runner is the most important on the field at that time. Like I said, don't care much for absolutes in this mechanic.

Mike, you are dangerously close to a "third world, what if" (well, sort of).

Yes, prioritizing the play -- that's what the mechanic is all about. You use the HOLDING ZONE to read the play and then react to the throw. The HZ is defined as the area about half way (notice the "about", so there isn't an absolute distance). A good PU will read runners coming home and outfielders throwing home, thus PU will not go that far into the HZ, stay at home and then react to the play. On a play where the runner scores easily and the throw is to third, PU needs to get "further" into the HZ and cover the "non-last" runner into third.

Pretty solid guidelines, and not see how this is absolute. If PU is unsure of the throw, PU needs to communicate the BU where he is.

My emphasis on your play: you are trying to say that PU goes to third -ON THE THROW- and then there is a snap throw and/or play at home? Even with me (yes me, with all the speed of an aging Sid Bream) rounding third and heading home is that even a remote possibility. PU goes to third because there is no play being made on the runner coming home and a play at third.

To me the problem arises when PU "stay home" with the runner scoring "because I have to watch the runner" (I say with my usual snark) and not go to third on the throw.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

[b]
3. On a lone runner on a fly ball advancement.

When doing slow-pitch games, I usually pre-game this coverage with my partner that PU will take the runner into third while BU takes the tag up at second.

On a line drive to an outfielder, it's tough for a BU to get from "B" to cover third base. The umpire would almost always be trailing the runner and not have the best angle (not to mention distance).

At least PU can work for a superior angle. Unless it's a ball down the RF line which the PU has to hang for fair/foul and catch/no catch. But that would be similar to what the PU would have to do if it was a one ump game.