"Last Time By" in Softball

[Manny A]

I'm curious which softball organizations recognize the "last time by" concept that I learned over in that other sport when I umpired there. Here's an example:

R1 on first base. She takes off for second on a hit and run. The batter hits a deep fly ball into the left-center field gap, and R1 touches second and takes a few steps to third, thinking the ball will fall. But then as she looks, she sees F8 make a crazy catch against the fence. R1 heads back to first, but misses second on the way. F8 throws the ball in to F4, who turns and whips a throw to F3, but the ball hits R1 in the helmet as she dives into the base. The ball ricochets toward the fence down the first base line, and R1 takes off again. She touches second base and beats the throw to third.

The defense then appeals that R1 missed second base on her way back to first base. Is the appeal upheld? Or is it denied since R1 did touch second base on her "last time by" the bag on her way to third?

I don't have access to my rule books right now, so if you can cite a rule that applies here, I would appreciate it.

[RKBUmp]

This case play would seem to indicate USA does not recognize last time by. Does not appear to be a complete description of the play because there would be base awards but it does say the runner would be called out on appeal for not retouching 2nd on the way back to 1st.

PLAY 8.7-14
With two outs, R1 on 1B, B4 hits the ball to F6 who throws over the head of F3 and the ball goes out of play. When the ball left F6’s hand, R1 was between 3B and 2B. R1 returns to 1B but did not touch 2B, instead R1 ran across the infield to touch 1B.
RULING: If R1 returns to 1B without touching 2B and the defense appeals R1 for not retouching 2B on the return, R1 would be called out on the appeal. (8-7G)

[Manny A]

Yeah, that case play does leave a lot to be desired, but it does appear that USA Softball doesn't believe in the concept.

I did find a case play in the "Ask Dee" document for NCAA play that seems to also not recognize the thought of a runner correcting her mistake.

A.R.12.22.4^1: The batter singles to the outfield with the bases loaded and one out. The runner from third base scores and the coach holds up
the next runner at third base. The runner from first base is halfway between second and third bases and heading back to second base. The batter-runner has rounded second base. Upon seeing the runner ahead of her retreating, the batter-runner cuts through the infield without retouching second base to return to first base. A fan is yelling for her to go back to touch second base so the batter-runner leaves first base. The defense throws to the first baseman to tag her (although she is confused as to why.) A rundown ensues with the batter-runner between first and second bases. In the meantime, the runner from third base tries to score and is thrown out. While that tag is applied at the plate, both remaining runners move up to third and second bases respectively. When play ends, the defense appeals that the batter-runner standing on second base did not retouch it on the way back to first base. Pertinent summary – the steps of the batter-runner who is standing on second base were: touched first base, touched second base, missed second base on way back to first base, touched first base, standing on second base. Is she out on appeal for not re-touching second base on the way back to first base?
RULING: Upon appeal, the batter-runner is out for failing to re-touching second base. She is the third out, although the runner who started on third base does score because the third out is a timing play, not a force out.

If her standing on second at the end of the play doesn't fix her initial mistake, I doubt she would be okay if she had touched second and continued to third.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Look at it this way. When the BR misses 1B, any appeal of that must be a live ball appeal prior to the runner returning to 1B. Why, one asks? As stated by more than one clinicians (NUS), because how can you appeal a runner missing a base upon which s/he is standing?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This case play would seem to indicate USA does not recognize last time by. Does not appear to be a complete description of the play because there would be base awards but it does say the runner would be called out on appeal for not retouching 2nd on the way back to 1st.

PLAY 8.7-14
With two outs, R1 on 1B, B4 hits the ball to F6 who throws over the head of F3 and the ball goes out of play. When the ball left F6’s hand, R1 was between 3B and 2B. R1 returns to 1B but did not touch 2B, instead R1 ran across the infield to touch 1B.
RULING: If R1 returns to 1B without touching 2B and the defense appeals R1 for not retouching 2B on the return, R1 would be called out on the appeal. (8-7G)

The case implies the batted ball was caught in flight, otherwise what ? ?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Look at it this way. When the BR misses 1B, any appeal of that must be a live ball appeal prior to the runner returning to 1B. Why, one asks? As stated by more than one clinicians (NUS), because how can you appeal a runner missing a base upon which s/he is standing?

So, you are saying the appeal answer is no/safe; touching 2nd on the way to 3rd removes the miss; even though the runner touched 1st on the return.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The case implies the batted ball was caught in flight, otherwise what ? ?

Except it says there are 2 outs and everything else would be moot once the ball was caught. Don't know who wrote that play but they appear to have been half asleep or brain dead when they wrote it. But, it does seem to indicate there is no such thing as last time by in USA softball.

[AtlUmpSteve]

IMO, the "last time by" concept contradicts the requirement to touch bases in the proper order. If one must touch first, second, third, then return order must third, second, first. If one must retreat to first and misses second, the only way to remedy would be to go back to touch second, AND THEN go back to first again; only after retouching ALL in the proper order could one again advance to second and be safe there.

At least, that's how I learned it; and the case plays in all these posts above seem to lean in that direction.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

IMO, the "last time by" concept contradicts the requirement to touch bases in the proper order. If one must touch first, second, third, then return order must third, second, first. If one must retreat to first and misses second, the only way to remedy would be to go back to touch second, AND THEN go back to first again; only after retouching ALL in the proper order could one again advance to second and be safe there.

At least, that's how I learned it; and the case plays in all these posts above seem to lean in that direction.

I was about to post a similar statement. Last time by gives the runner an advantage since it allows the runner to take a shortcut to retouch first (in the OP example).

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I was about to post a similar statement. Last time by gives the runner an advantage since it allows the runner to take a shortcut to retouch first (in the OP example).

In NFHS and NCAA baseball a gross/intentional miss would not be covered by last time by and would be appealable. I think MLB/OBR currently does not apply "gross miss" and any "last time by" touch would be allowed.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I was about to post a similar statement. Last time by gives the runner an advantage since it allows the runner to take a shortcut to retouch first (in the OP example).

Perhaps, but that assumes the runner would take that shortcut, retouch first, and then still have the wherewithal to turn back again and make it to second safely.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

So, you are saying the appeal answer is no/safe; touching 2nd on the way to 3rd removes the miss; even though the runner touched 1st on the return.

I'm having a hard time tracking what you're asking here. But if you're talking that the batter-runner:

- legally touched first and continued
- legally touched second and continued, but then turned around
- missed second and continued
- legally touched first and turned around
- legally touched second and continued
- finally arrived to third base

I don't think any of that fixes her initial miss of second base while returning to first. What would have fixed her miss is the following:

- legally touched first and continued
- legally touched second and continued, but then turned around
- missed second and continued
- legally touched first and turned around
- legally touched second and returned
- legally touched first and turned around again
- legally touched second and continued
- finally arrived to third base

Bottom line: Don't miss any bases!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm having a hard time tracking what you're asking here.

Just trying to clarify what Irish said.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

IMO, the "last time by" concept contradicts the requirement to touch bases in the proper order. If one must touch first, second, third, then return order must third, second, first. If one must retreat to first and misses second, the only way to remedy would be to go back to touch second, AND THEN go back to first again; only after retouching ALL in the proper order could one again advance to second and be safe there.

At least, that's how I learned it; and the case plays in all these posts above seem to lean in that direction.

Don't disagree. Explaining it to a player or coach may not be so simple

[jmkupka]

"how can you appeal a runner missing a base upon which s/he is standing?"

As easily as explaining why a score wouldn't count when a runner clearly crossed the plate.