Little League Team Disqualification.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

It's pretty obvious at the lever where it happened.

Stupid rule. Umpire's discretion. We hope it will get re-thought.

It is a stupid rule that just kills the integrity of the game.

OTOH, LL shouldn't be involved in the game of softball to begin.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

OTOH, LL shouldn't be involved in the game of softball to begin.

Please explain !!

Probably more games for those of us who don't umpire LL, if all were in travel ball; but I'm curious about your reasons.
Is it because they can't get it out of the baseball minds?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Please explain !!

Probably more games for those of us who don't umpire LL, if all were in travel ball; but I'm curious about your reasons.
Is it because they can't get it out of the baseball minds?

Softball appeared in the scope of LL when the courts ruled they had to accept females as players on the baseball team.

IMO, that was meant to achieve two goals:

Keep the girls off the baseball field and basically, "keep it in the family" when it came time to collect the money from the parents.

And yes, there are girls playing LL baseball, but not nearly as many as there would be had they not added softball.

I've said it before, if I had been king of the ASA, I would have attempted to negotiate with LL to cooperate with each other allowing LL to handle all youth softball for the 12U level and down and ASA take over at the 14U level and up. Share the registration fees and let ASA train the umpires whether paid or volunteer.

IMO, that would have been a win-win for ASA & LL.

Then again, what the hell to I know?

[chapmaja]

I have several problems with this entire mess. First of all, I don't agree with the disqualification of the entire team from the event. I feel that ruling is an absolute overkill on the part of the organization. Yes it was inappropriate and unacceptable.

Second, to advance the losing team from the semi-final, one who had two individuals ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct, to the championship game is just as bad as the disqualification itself.

Several articles have referenced multiple instances of unsportsmanlike behavior from the Kirkland, Wa team that was the target of the middle finger from the Atlee players. I know one such instance was the stealing of the signs, but I wonder if there were other instances also and if event officials were aware of these instances.

Finally, you do have to question if the fact Kirkland, Wa was the home team for this event played any role in the decision making process.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I have several problems with this entire mess. First of all, I don't agree with the disqualification of the entire team from the event. I feel that ruling is an absolute overkill on the part of the organization. Yes it was inappropriate and unacceptable.

Second, to advance the losing team from the semi-final, one who had two individuals ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct, to the championship game is just as bad as the disqualification itself.

Several articles have referenced multiple instances of unsportsmanlike behavior from the Kirkland, Wa team that was the target of the middle finger from the Atlee players. I know one such instance was the stealing of the signs, but I wonder if there were other instances also and if event officials were aware of these instances.

Finally, you do have to question if the fact Kirkland, Wa was the home team for this event played any role in the decision making process.

LL rules apparently consider the stealing of signs unsportsmanlike conduct and apparently the effect is the ejection of the player and coach. IMO, it is not UC and that penalty is just as much an overkill as the DQ.

This is what happens when you live in a zero tolerance environment.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I have several problems with this entire mess. First of all, I don't agree with the disqualification of the entire team from the event. I feel that ruling is an absolute overkill on the part of the organization. Yes it was inappropriate and unacceptable.

OK, not DQ from tourney. What would have been appropriate?
Suspending or DQ 6 players is essentially the whole team.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Second, to advance the losing team from the semi-final, one who had two individuals ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct, to the championship game is just as bad as the disqualification itself.

One incident of UC should not penalize the whole team in later games.

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Several articles have referenced multiple instances of unsportsmanlike behavior from the Kirkland, Wa team that was the target of the middle finger from the Atlee players. I know one such instance was the stealing of the signs, but I wonder if there were other instances also and if event officials were aware of these instances.

Finally, you do have to question if the fact Kirkland, Wa was the home team for this event played any role in the decision making process.

Do you believe the TD was not monitoring games enough?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Three separate messageboards I frequent have threads about this. I don't claim to have insider knowledge, but there is information out there that makes several of the responses here misguided, in my mind, anyway.

Here are some of the discrepancies I am reading.

1) The social media photo with 6 players giving the finger was actually taken before the semifinal game was even played. It wasn't even a response to supposed acts that were used to justify and rationalize why it was OK by the Atlee parents and coaches.

2) The Kirkland coaches and the TD were reportedly fine with a formal apology. It was other Kirkland parents that insisted further action be taken, and that they would take it higher up if the TD did not.

3) The Kirkland TD did NOT make the decision, knowing that was a no-win situation. He kicked the facts to the National Office, and the National Office made the decision.

4) As others have said, the minimum appropriate response would be to suspend the 6 players. If you define tipping pitch location as unsportsmanlike and deserving ejection of both player and head coach, there is absolutely NO WAY to ignore what these 6 kids did. In what world does that (6 suspended players) not result in a forfeit?

5) Since the photo was (reportedly) prior to the semifinal game, I see it reasonable to (at least consider) postdating the suspensions to prior to that game and declaring it a forfeit. That loss disqualified the team from continuing, not an after-the-fact disqualification. Think of it as having used ineligible players, BECAUSE ....

6) Are you freakin kidding me that LLSB would "cancel" the ESPN spot for that scheduled championship game over this? Weather, maybe; but to cancel this game when you have an administrative solution (making the suspensions retroactive and forfeiting the semifinal) is really unthinkable.

In another forum, I posted this thought:

Accountability and consequences for their actions? A public and national act of unsporting and crude behavior on social media is punished. How dare they??

It's only unfair and unreasonable to the extent that this group of kids have probably never been accountable before in their lives. Blame the parents, and multiply the blame by the excuses and rationalizations pontificated by the parents and coaches.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

It's only unfair and unreasonable to the extent that this group of kids have probably never been accountable before in their lives. Blame the parents, and multiply the blame by the excuses and rationalizations pontificated by the parents and coaches.[/I]

Thank you, Steve!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

4) As others have said, the minimum appropriate response would be to suspend the 6 players. If you define tipping pitch location as unsportsmanlike and deserving ejection of both player and head coach, there is absolutely NO WAY to ignore what these 6 kids did. In what world does that (6 suspended players) not result in a forfeit?

5) Since the photo was (reportedly) prior to the semifinal game, I see it reasonable to (at least consider) postdating the suspensions to prior to that game and declaring it a forfeit. That loss disqualified the team from continuing, not an after-the-fact disqualification. Think of it as having used ineligible players, BECAUSE ....

6) Are you freakin kidding me that LLSB would "cancel" the ESPN spot for that scheduled championship game over this? Weather, maybe; but to cancel this game when you have an administrative solution (making the suspensions retroactive and forfeiting the semifinal) is really unthinkable.

In another forum, I posted this thought:

Accountability and consequences for their actions? A public and national act of unsporting and crude behavior on social media is punished. How dare they??

It's only unfair and unreasonable to the extent that this group of kids have probably never been accountable before in their lives. Blame the parents, and multiply the blame by the excuses and rationalizations pontificated by the parents and coaches.

Only one problem with this. The 6 girls in the picture didn't violate any rules. Only the individual who posted the picture on social media did.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I've said it before, if I had been king of the ASA, I would have attempted to negotiate with LL to cooperate with each other allowing LL to handle all youth softball for the 12U level and down and ASA take over at the 14U level and up. Share the registration fees and let ASA train the umpires whether paid or volunteer.

IMO, that would have been a win-win for ASA & LL.

First of all, I thought you were K ASA.

The problem would have been rules, better if LL had used "ASA" SOFTBALL rules instead of trying to apply baseball rules to softball.

Besides, the 10&U keep my knees in shape.

[Mountaincoach]

The tragedy of the whole situation is the realization of the damage a social media post can do nowadays. Once it's on the internet, it can never really be taken down. The six girls who decided to raise their middle finger in that picture will be forever linked to it. And, make no mistake, considering their age and obvious talent level, at least a handful of them were probably beginning to show up on the radars of future college coaches. Probably not after this......

[RKBUmp]

People think they can post anything they want on the internet and there will be no repercussions. I have seen several comments claiming it is free speech and the players had every right to post it. Yes, freedom of speech means they can pretty much say or do anything they want but it does not mean they will not face penalties for their actions. You can say anything you want about your boss on facebook, does not mean they have to retain you as an employee.

My daughters college team had a freshman come in that was very active in posting on facebook, twitter etc. She was posting negative things about the coaches, players etc. Coach called her in, had a discussion with her and explained in no uncertain terms the negative posts would cease immediately. She promptly walked out of the meeting with the coach and posted about how no coach was going to tell her what she could and could not post on social media.

Just so happened the team was flying out that day for a tournament. The girls parents had already left and were driving to the tournament which was several states away. The team drove to the airport in the team bus and as the girls got off the bus they handed them their airline tickets. When said girl got of the plane they told her she had no ticket and would not be traveling with the team. Yes, she was free to post and say anything she wanted, the coach was also free to leave her behind.