Adding players to a lineup

[Big Slick]

Dakota is correct, playing under championship rules, a team is allowed to (and must) start short handed if they have one player below the minimum. The blank spot is at the bottom of the line up (or "next to bottom" for co-ed purposes) and must be filled when the person arrives, or that person is ineligible to play.

I stress "championship rules"; I dare believe this was a league game and there are most likely league rules that allow or not allow late arrivals and/or with or without penalty.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

The blank spot is at the bottom of the line up (or "next to bottom" for co-ed purposes) and must be filled when the person arrives, or that person is ineligible to play.

Okay, then using this rule set, let's say nine have batted, the 10th hasn't arrived yet, and we go back to the top of the order. (Our league allows three or four women to bat, and the alternating stops when you run out of one gender or the other.) That team is locked in with nine batters, correct? A tenth could not be added to the lineup or the field, correct?

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Okay, then using this rule set, let's say nine have batted, the 10th hasn't arrived yet, and we go back to the top of the order. (Our league allows three or four women to bat, and the alternating stops when you run out of one gender or the other.) That team is locked in with nine batters, correct? A tenth could not be added to the lineup or the field, correct?

It depends what your local rules say. Under book rules the ninth or tenth spot is a short handed rule out whenever it comes up. When a sub (of correct gender) they fill the open spot. Others who arrive late are just extra subs. There have to be ten spots in batting order even if one is vacant and being called out when due up.

But local league slow pitch rules will modify rule book rules so your mileage may vary. 😎

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Okay, then using this rule set, let's say nine have batted, the 10th hasn't arrived yet, and we go back to the top of the order. (Our league allows three or four women to bat, and the alternating stops when you run out of one gender or the other.) That team is locked in with nine batters, correct? A tenth could not be added to the lineup or the field, correct?

Local rules are made by fools

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Local rules are made by fools

I disagree with that statement to some extent. Local rules are made by people who understand who the majority of players PAYING to play in their league are. The majority of players playing in Recreational Leagues are not going out and playing USA Tourneys on the weekends. They are out to play for 1 or 2 nights per week. The local rules allow some flexibility to allow the games to be played and the participants to get what they PAID for, the chance to participate in the games.

Are some rules over the top stupid? Absolutely, because at some point they do start to mess with the integrity of the game, but some of the rules do exactly what the purpose of the local rule is, getting those who are paying to participate a chance to participate.

It is made very clear at our yearly league clinic. "We are in a business to attract teams. Without teams you, as umpires, don't have games to work."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I disagree with that statement to some extent. Local rules are made by people who understand who the majority of players PAYING to play in their league are. The majority of players playing in Recreational Leagues are not going out and playing USA Tourneys on the weekends. They are out to play for 1 or 2 nights per week. The local rules allow some flexibility to allow the games to be played and the participants to get what they PAID for, the chance to participate in the games.

Are some rules over the top stupid? Absolutely, because at some point they do start to mess with the integrity of the game, but some of the rules do exactly what the purpose of the local rule is, getting those who are paying to participate a chance to participate.

It is made very clear at our yearly league clinic. "We are in a business to attract teams. Without teams you, as umpires, don't have games to work."

I understand who is paying the bills. That doesn't make what they want to do right, nor does it mean as an umpire I would have to work those games. Do you do everything the players and sponsors want? If not, why not? After all, they are paying the bills.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I disagree with that statement to some extent. Local rules are made by people who understand who the majority of players PAYING to play in their league are. The majority of players playing in Recreational Leagues are not going out and playing USA Tourneys on the weekends. They are out to play for 1 or 2 nights per week. The local rules allow some flexibility to allow the games to be played and the participants to get what they PAID for, the chance to participate in the games.

Are some rules over the top stupid? Absolutely, because at some point they do start to mess with the integrity of the game, but some of the rules do exactly what the purpose of the local rule is, getting those who are paying to participate a chance to participate.

It is made very clear at our yearly league clinic. "We are in a business to attract teams. Without teams you, as umpires, don't have games to work."

The issue is that the local rules are enacted in good faith and seem to be what people want, but the groups making the local rules don't have enough of a grasp of the entire rule book and don't consider how their local rules could interact with other rules in the book. This creates two issues....

1. Teams that do choose to participate in championship play think that their local league rules are "the" rules and will get upset when a ruling is made that is correct by book, but not per the local rules.

2. The teams are playing within their local rules and not learning how to play situational softball within championship rules that could be to their advantage.

I've always maintained that we have a perfectly good rule book that a lot of thought and preparation goes into (speaking USA SB)...why don't we use it instead of trying to change everything?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

The issue is that the local rules are enacted in good faith and seem to be what people want, but the groups making the local rules don't have enough of a grasp of the entire rule book and don't consider how their local rules could interact with other rules in the book. This creates two issues....

1. Teams that do choose to participate in championship play think that their local league rules are "the" rules and will get upset when a ruling is made that is correct by book, but not per the local rules.

2. The teams are playing within their local rules and not learning how to play situational softball within championship rules that could be to their advantage.

I've always maintained that we have a perfectly good rule book that a lot of thought and preparation goes into (speaking USA SB)...why don't we use it instead of trying to change everything?

And the more immediate and more obvious effect is the open holes and ambiguous provisions. The real rule book has enough of those anyway, but the local ones are more likely to occur.

[Umpteenth]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I disagree with that statement to some extent. Local rules are made by people who understand who the majority of players PAYING to play in their league are. The majority of players playing in Recreational Leagues are not going out and playing USA Tourneys on the weekends. They are out to play for 1 or 2 nights per week. The local rules allow some flexibility to allow the games to be played and the participants to get what they PAID for, the chance to participate in the games.

Are some rules over the top stupid? Absolutely, because at some point they do start to mess with the integrity of the game, but some of the rules do exactly what the purpose of the local rule is, getting those who are paying to participate a chance to participate.

It is made very clear at our yearly league clinic. "We are in a business to attract teams. Without teams you, as umpires, don't have games to work."

In our neck of the woods, a lot of teams playing "recreational" ball (USA-sanctioned, but using local rules) during the week are teams that play USSSA tournament ball on the weekends.
So, we deal with local rules that vary from city to city (for example, one city uses "courtesy" foul with 2 strikes, others do not), rules differences between USSSA and USA, etc. And, a lot of the players want to abide by OBR and not softball rules, with lots of arguing centering on rules they "think" they know, but have no understanding of at all.
Add to this the fact that umpires do not review the city local rules, let alone actually read the USA rule book, nor do they have an understanding of game management, and this is a can of worms that explodes on a regular basis.
Thankful I don't do SP any more.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

....
Add to this the fact that umpires do not review the city local rules, let alone actually read the USA rule book, nor do they have an understanding of game management, and this is a can of worms that explodes on a regular basis.
....

That sounds familiar....

[PandaBear]

This is exactly why a lot of us avoid "beer-cooler" ball at almost all cost!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Okay, then using this rule set, let's say nine have batted, the 10th hasn't arrived yet, and we go back to the top of the order. (Our league allows three or four women to bat, and the alternating stops when you run out of one gender or the other.) That team is locked in with nine batters, correct? A tenth could not be added to the lineup or the field, correct?

No. That's not what he (or the rule) says. They MUST add the 10th (shorthanded) player whenever an appropriate player arrives. No matter how many times you go around.

What they cannot do is add EP's after you start.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

No. That's not what he (or the rule) says. They MUST add the 10th (shorthanded) player whenever an appropriate player arrives. No matter how many times you go around.

What they cannot do is add EP's after you start.

Okay, thanks. Follow up: If the team presently has nine, and no tenth player comes to bat, is it an automatic out before the lead-off hitter comes to bat? Can I get a rule citation?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Okay, thanks. Follow up: If the team presently has nine, and no tenth player comes to bat, is it an automatic out before the lead-off hitter comes to bat? Can I get a rule citation?

4.1-D.1 Shorthanded Rule

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

4.1-D.1 Shorthanded Rule

Okay, reviewed this rule today. Here's what I have...

If a team bats nine, and chooses not to take an out for the tenth batter that hasn't arrived yet, they're stuck with nine in the lineup -- and the field -- for the duration of the game.