Throw from F2 hits batter's bat on backswing - Call?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Need to read the rules on this for the various alphabets.

In USA Softball, Rule 7-4-I and Rule Supplement 24 says that if a batter swings and misses the pitch, and then on his/her follow-through hits the ball, or hits the ball after it bounces off the catcher or his/her mitt, then the ball is dead and runners cannot advance. If this happens on Strike 3, then the batter has interfered with a dropped third strike and she's out.

RS #24

C. If the batter swings at and missed the pitched ball but
1. Accidently hits it on the follow through, or
2. Intentionally hits it on a second swing, or
3. Hits the ball after it bounces off the catcher or mitt/glove.
The ball it dead and all runners must return to the based occupied at the time of the pitch (FP, SP w/stealing and 16"SP). In (2) and (3), if the act is intentional with runners on base, the batter is called out for interference. If this occurs on the third strike in FP, Rule 8, Section 2F has precedence.

[CecilOne]

I'm uncertain about how these fit together or separate.
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The "actively" is something that is not a normal move while performing his/her duties in the batter's box. Attempting to strike the pitch is part of the duties of a batter and that includes the entire swing, from start to finish.
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The batter is permitted to swing at the ball and in most cases there is a follow-through associated with that swing. Unless you observe the batter do something out of the norm with that follow through, there is no violation.
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In USA Softball, Rule 7-4-I and Rule Supplement 24 says that if a batter swings and misses the pitch, and then on his/her follow-through hits the ball, or hits the ball after it bounces off the catcher or his/her mitt, then the ball is dead and runners cannot advance.
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I guess the natural duties
of the batter theory would not apply in that case and seems that it may not, in fact, apply when the batters follow through knocks the ball out of the catchers glove when there is a steal being attempted according to your quotes of the other rule sets.
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RS #24

C. If the batter swings at and missed the pitched ball but
1. Accidently hits it on the follow through, or
2. Intentionally hits it on a second swing, or
3. Hits the ball after it bounces off the catcher or mitt/glove.
The ball it dead and all runners must return to the based occupied at the time of the pitch (FP, SP w/stealing and 16"SP). In (2) and (3), if the act is intentional with runners on base, the batter is called out for interference
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????

[Umpteenth]

The batter did not hit the ball. The catcher threw the ball, which hit the bat.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Umpteenth

The batter did not hit the ball. The catcher threw the ball, which hit the bat.

The last few comments were not about the OP. We went off an a tangent starting with post #17.

[bigwally]

That's right. We were taking the OP to the next few levels to establish that the follow through can ,indeed, cause interference in some situations. Now, claiming ignorance, I was always under the impression that 'actively' meant just that, being in physical motion. The concensus seems to understand that 'actively' means 'something unusual' or out of the norm. Who's interpretation is this? Where did it come from and when was that established? Is there a case play? Is it printed somewhere for all of us to see and learn from? If not, it should be

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bigwally

That's right. We were taking the OP to the next few levels to establish that the follow through can ,indeed, cause interference in some situations. Now, claiming ignorance, I was always under the impression that 'actively' meant just that, being in physical motion. The consensus seems to understand that 'actively' means 'something unusual' or out of the norm. Who's interpretation is this? Where did it come from and when was that established? Is there a case play? Is it printed somewhere for all of us to see and learn from? If not, it should be

It came from the people who wrote it and recommended passage in Colorado Springs in 2006. The word "actively" replaced the word "intentionally" and the word "standing" (in the batter's box) was deleted to avoid the debate that a batter was not "standing" if they were moving in the batter's box.

Before those amendments were applied, all committees except the Umpires had rejected the change out of fear the catcher could just hit the batter with the ball or do just about and claim the batter hindered his/her ability to make a play on a runner. I could be wrong, but I believe Steve R (Utah) provided the word "actively". With the amendment, the Rules Committee approved the change and was adopted on the floor of the General Council.

At the end of this meeting, the basic instruction as it pertained to the removal of the word "intentional" or a derivative of it, was for the umpire to call the plays somewhat the same as they had before, just that now there was no question of the umpire determining nor requiring intent. There was an emphasis placed on there being an "act" of interference being required.

An example of that was given at the subsequent UIC clinic with a runner advancing from 1st to 2nd on a ground ball and F4 throwing to 1B in an attempt to complete a double play. The runner from 1st a) attempted to advance toward 2nd and was hit by the throw; b) fell down a couple steps off 1st base and then stood up in front of the throw which hit him.

The ruling was in a) the runner was simply attempting to advance to 2nd base, no INT and the ball remains live. In b), the runner popped up into the path of the ball which was considered an "act" of INT, the ball is dead and the runner closest to home is declared out.

There are probably a couple others on this board who were also there and may/should correct anything I missed or remembered incorrectly

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It came from the people who wrote it and recommended passage in Colorado Springs in 2006. The word "actively" replaced the word "intentionally" and the word "standing" (in the batter's box) was deleted to avoid the debate that a batter was not "standing" if they were moving in the batter's box.

Before those amendments were applied, all committees except the Umpires had rejected the change out of fear the catcher could just hit the batter with the ball or do just about and claim the batter hindered his/her ability to make a play on a runner. I could be wrong, but I believe Steve R (Utah) provided the word "actively". With the amendment, the Rules Committee approved the change and was adopted on the floor of the General Council.

At the end of this meeting, the basic instruction as it pertained to the removal of the word "intentional" or a derivative of it, was for the umpire to call the plays somewhat the same as they had before, just that now there was no question of the umpire determining nor requiring intent. There was an emphasis placed on there being an "act" of interference being required.

An example of that was given at the subsequent UIC clinic with a runner advancing from 1st to 2nd on a ground ball and F4 throwing to 1B in an attempt to complete a double play. The runner from 1st a) attempted to advance toward 2nd and was hit by the throw; b) fell down a couple steps off 1st base and then stood up in front of the throw which hit him.

The ruling was in a) the runner was simply attempting to advance to 2nd base, no INT and the ball remains live. In b), the runner popped up into the path of the ball which was considered an "act" of INT, the ball is dead and the runner closest to home is declared out.

There are probably a couple others on this board who were also there and may/should correct anything I missed or remembered incorrectly

As IrishMafia knows, I was an active and voting member of the ASA Playing Rules Committee at that time; and also participated in the subsequent UIC Clinic. I agree with his analysis, and would only add that "normal" is not necessarily the same as "routine". The primary purpose of the rules changes were to eliminate "intentionally", disregard what motive or mindset any player may have, and simply rule if the action wasn't part of the game rules and constitutes interference.

The batter is effectively protected from interference to either attempt to hit the pitched ball (including any appropriate actions done), or to hold ground while NOT attempting to hit the ball. The batter is NOT protected if taking an action NOT involved in those two categories.

So a normal hitting action and a normal follow thru are not interference; an exaggerated swing or follow thru that really aren't an attempt to hit the ball, or a swing AFTER the ball has passed, to assist a stealing runner could be judged interference. Rule on the action, if there is a play, not what you think the batter was "trying" to do.