Checked swing-D3K

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by umpjim

You haven't answered the ? in 3 man. If someone is inside or outside on the open side does the PU go to him and does he give him what he sees? If the code requires the PU to ask you have to give him something no matter where you are.

What I am saying, is that I don't think you should call it a swing if you are in the middle of the diamond or looking through the back of the batter, unless it is blatantly obvious and the only reason the PU needs help is because he was blocked out for some reason.

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[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

What I am saying, is that I don't think you should call it a swing if you are in the middle of the diamond or looking through the back of the batter, unless it is blatantly obvious and the only reason the PU needs help is because he was blocked out for some reason.

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I agree.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

I disagree. The defense properly executed the appropriate play. No need to do it again because the umpires were late to the party.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Nonsense. If you know what to look for as a base umpire, you can get that call correct from anywhere.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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What are you doing to get checked swings correct? What's your mechanic? What's your focus?

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

What are you doing to get checked swings correct? What's your mechanic? What's your focus?

As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11

As an aid in deciding, the umpire may note whether the swing carried the barrel of the bat past the body of the batter, but final decision is based on whether the batter actually struck at the ball.

It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by MT 73

And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.

Originally Posted by Mbilica

True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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OBR and OBR-based rules are also used in LL, Dixie, USSSA, Babe Ruth, Legion, etc. etc. etc.

[CecilOne]

Should I ask about illegal pitches, 12" or 11" game balls, cylindrical bats, look back rule, DP/FLEX, windmill motions, live ball walks, or quick moving games on the baseball forum?

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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Yes, in 3 man PBUC says go to U1 with a RHB and U3 with a LHB with or without runners. So with a LHB they require going to U3 in deep B with R1 if the defense asks or for some reason the PU was blocked. What you give him is up to you.

[BretMan]

Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"...

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"...

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!

Well said.

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[MT 73]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Wondering what the difference is between something being "obvious" and "blatantly obvious"...

If I'm on the bases, I tell my partner to feel free to come to me on a checked swing no matter where I'm set up.

"But! But! But! You can't see that from there..."

Maybe I can, maybe I can't. If I can't, then I'm not going to overrule you and call a strike. But if I can, I will.

It's not "impossible" to make this call from sub-optimal positions. Just don't guess at a call. If you really can't tell, the default is "no swing". You did your job as best you could- be happy with that and move on!

Ditto for well said.
Excellent.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Originally Posted by MT 73

And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.




OBR and OBR-based rules are also used in LL, Dixie, USSSA, Babe Ruth, Legion, etc. etc. etc.

I deleted that nasty crack--too late apparently.
But as far as I know only professional baseball uses true OBR.
As I already stated in post #34, Many youth organizations use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and more leeway to extra playing time.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11



It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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The way I was taught to judge a checked swing was to look for the indentation cup at the top of the bat.
If the PU can see it then he did not go and vice versa for the BU.
Not perfect perhaps but an easy way to stay consistent.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

As the pitch is delivered, I turn my attention from the pitcher to the plate area. I am looking for

- batter fouling the ball off of himself
- Hit by pitch
- a foul dropped by the catcher/foul tip
- swing or no swing
- foul or swing and miss
- interference by the batter or catcher

Im not sure what you are looking for with regards to focus. I have been taught that the old ideas about swing/ no swing are incorrect. That is, bringing the bat head over the plate or in front of the plate is not necessarily an offer. "Breaking the wrists" is not necessarily an offer. An offer is judged on a number of criteria that have to do with multiple factors. When I am in B or C, I do not have complete information on whether the offer was made when it is close. I'm not saying I would never rule that the batter offered from the middle or the back of the batter. But it would need to be clear and obvious. It is not unlike calling a balk on a LHP whose free foot may or may not have broken the plane of the back of the pitchers plate prior to throwing to first. Being in B position places you at a disadvantage when trying to see that fine line as well.


Here is a guideline from the NFHS baseball rules that I think is helpful (10-1-4). A nearly identical statement is found in NFHS softball rule 2-11



It is impossible to see if the barrel came past the body of the batter (if it's close) if you are in B or C. Even if that may not be the deciding factor anyway, B or C position is not a good position to see whatever you need to see.

In the OBR rules, there is no such guidance, but there is a reference to the appeal being made to the 1st or 3rd base umpire.

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So I hear you saying that there are multiple criteria. I also see you saying that when you are off the line, you can't use some of those criteria. So you must then focus on those that you can use, right?