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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:05pm
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Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request.
But not so in NFHS ball.
He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:10pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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The MLBUM manual says different.
Page 51--paragraph 71 under the heading of Check Swing Appeals---of the 2017 MLBUM:
"Under Official Baseball Rules the plate umpire has an obligation to ask for help when the manager or catcher of the defensive team requests an appeal.."

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 08:19pm.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:12pm
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Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
The MLBUM manual says different.
And unless you are a MLB or Minor League umpire you do NOT officiate under OBR.
True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:24pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
True, we use OBR rules in Massachusetts, however.

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I took that part out to avoid being sarcastic--not fast enough it seems.
Youth leagues, such as Babe Ruth, Little League, Pony and others use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and the ability to bat extra players, allow substitutes to re enter, etc.
If your leagues allow modifications such as these then you do not use true OBR.
Then again, I do not umpire in Massachusetts so Quien Sabe?

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 08:26pm.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:30pm
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Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
I took that part out to avoid being sarcastic--not fast enough it seems.
Youth leagues, such as Babe Ruth, Little League, Pony and others use modified OBR to allow for safety concerns and the ability to bat extra players, allow substitutes to re enter, etc.
If your leagues allow modifications such as these then you do not use true OBR.
Then again, I do not umpire in Massachusetts so you may actually use OBR.
The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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Last edited by Mbilica; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 08:32pm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:48pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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Well it looks as if you guys do use OBR, with just a tad of modifications.
HS rules are a whole other animal!!
In addition to Babe Ruth baseball I umpire HS softball but so many of our summer baseball tournaments here in NY use NFHS that I was forced to learn that rule book as well.

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 08:50pm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:48pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
The only modification I am aware of has to do with disqualifications. Players can be restricted to the bench. Also, the MIAA has established an official warning system for coaches. We only get the OBR rule book and we use MLB umpire training materials for our clinics. Some of the OBR rules don't fit the HS game very well all the time, but it is easier to umpire, in my opinion, than NFHS. We have no reentry, and no extra batters. I actually think the recent safety innovations in the MLB rules are also adequate at the HS level.

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So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling if he came come to you or it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.

Last edited by umpjim; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 09:41pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:56pm
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Originally Posted by umpjim View Post
So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling or he came come to you but it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.
One time when I was in 2 man, the PU appealed to me on a checked swing by a left handed batter. I thought he went. When I indicated the swing, the head coach at 3rd had a fit. He had been coaching for a long time and had "never seen such a pioneer call". After the game, the PU apologized to me for looking for help. I was SURE I had a swing. But sure enough, I got a call from my assignor that evening. From then on, I make it a point to cover this in pregame. Unless everyone on the field can tell it was a swing, leave it to the plate umpire unless you are in A and it is a RHB. We can only get the lefties in 3 man. I hold to the same standard in softball. We are just at a disadvantage without an umpire on each corner.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:57pm
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Originally Posted by umpjim View Post
So in any BB or SB code that requires you to go, as PU in 3 man, with runner/s on in the various perturbations you go to U? with LHB and U? with RHB. If you are BU in 3 man you tell PU in the briefing to go to whoever is on the wing with any batter because you won't have a ruling or he came come to you but it will be a no? Aside, I think at one point in some 3 man code they always went to the wing even if the inside ump was on the right side. So the debate is ongoing.
No debate.
In a 3 or 4 man crew the PU checks with whichever umpire has the best angle.
Which means with a Lefty it is the 3B umpire who usually gets the appeal.
But--in a two man rotation the BU gets it no matter where he is.
Just call 'em like you see 'em.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 09:02pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
One time when I was in 2 man, the PU appealed to me on a checked swing by a left handed batter. I thought he went. When I indicated the swing, the head coach at 3rd had a fit. He had been coaching for a long time and had "never seen such a pioneer call". After the game, the PU apologized to me for looking for help. I was SURE I had a swing. But sure enough, I got a call from my assignor that evening. From then on, I make it a point to cover this in pregame. Unless everyone on the field can tell it was a swing, leave it to the plate umpire unless you are in A and it is a RHB. We can only get the lefties in 3 man. I hold to the same standard in softball. We are just at a disadvantage without an umpire on each corner.

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That coach should have been ejected and never--NEVER--let a coach cause you to doubt yourself.
( However It sounds as if you yourself felt that you had messed up when in fact you did the proper thing.
That is why these forums are such a valuable resource since none of us know it all and are still works in progress)
To repeat---Unless this was a HS game the PU had no choice but to go to you and you did as you were supposed to do--you called it as you saw it.
Your assignor should have backed you up and told the coach that he is ignorant of a very basic rule.
Then again, there really should be a Tooth Fairy and a Santa Claus.

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 09:08pm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 09:27pm
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Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
That coach should have been ejected and never--NEVER--let a coach cause you to doubt yourself.
( However It sounds as if you yourself felt that you had messed up when in fact you did the proper thing.
That is why these forums are such a valuable resource since none of us know it all and are still works in progress)
To repeat---Unless this was a HS game the PU had no choice but to go to you and you did as you were supposed to do--you called it as you saw it.
Your assignor should have backed you up and told the coach that he is ignorant of a very basic rule.
Then again, there really should be a Tooth Fairy and a Santa Claus.
I still think I got the call right. I don't doubt it. The way I understand it is in comparison to officiating your area in football. A LH batter is going to be hard to get a checked swing on. Making that call is like fishing in someone else's pond. It better be a whale, not a minnow. So, in essence I need to make that call a BIG call if Im going to call it a swing.

As for never letting a coach make me doubt myself? That is the challenge I think we all face. I do think umpiring for a full season should be a prerequisite for coaching a baseball team...

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 09:35pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
I still think I got the call right. I don't doubt it. The way I understand it is in comparison to officiating your area in football. A LH batter is going to be hard to get a checked swing on. Making that call is like fishing in someone else's pond. It better be a whale, not a minnow. So, in essence I need to make that call a BIG call if Im going to call it a swing.

As for never letting a coach make me doubt myself? That is the challenge I think we all face. I do think umpiring for a full season should be a prerequisite for coaching a baseball team...

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I was once one of our leagues umpire instructors and evaluators.
When a coach was ejected he had to serve a two day suspension during which he had to umpire the bases with me in a 10U game.
I made sure he has a long, long day.
As to your call--quite frankly I rarely over rule my partner in a checked swing appeal,especially if I am in the C with a RH batter.
Yeah, yeah I know but 32 years in law enforcement taught me to choose my battles wisely.
As to doubting---I became a rule addict because I never wanted to be that umpire who has two coaches yelling two different rule interpretations and not knowing who--or of any of them--are correct.
As to blowing a call--learn from it and let it go but take what any coach says with a grain of salt because 99% of the time he sees what he wants to see.
I wish I could be more of an umpire as my 18 year old son
He could care less what coaches or players think and never doubts himself--or at least he never shows it
Sad to say this will be his last season for awhile because he is getting ready to join the U.S. Marine Corp in October.

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 09:51pm.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 09:59pm
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Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
He could care less what coaches or players think and never doubts himself--or at least he never shows it
Sad to say this will be his last season for awhile because he is getting ready to join the U.S. Marine Corp in October.
Wow, congratulations to him. You must be very proud! I have nothing but admiration and respect for the Marine Corps.

My boys are 16 and 14, and both officiate soccer. They have learned a lot watching me officiate and they don't take any garbage from coaches at all.

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:01pm
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Wow, congratulations to him. You must be very proud! I have nothing but admiration and respect for the Marine Corps.

My boys are 16 and 14, and both officiate soccer. They have learned a lot watching me officiate and they don't take any garbage from coaches at all.

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Thank you.
Yes, I am very proud of him.
Sounds as if you are teaching your boys well.
Good job.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:56pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
One time when I was in 2 man, the PU appealed to me on a checked swing by a left handed batter. I thought he went. When I indicated the swing, the head coach at 3rd had a fit. He had been coaching for a long time and had "never seen such a pioneer call". After the game, the PU apologized to me for looking for help. I was SURE I had a swing. But sure enough, I got a call from my assignor that evening. From then on, I make it a point to cover this in pregame. Unless everyone on the field can tell it was a swing, leave it to the plate umpire unless you are in A and it is a RHB. We can only get the lefties in 3 man. I hold to the same standard in softball. We are just at a disadvantage without an umpire on each corner.

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You haven't answered the ? in 3 man. If someone is inside or outside on the open side does the PU go to him and does he give him what he sees? If the code requires the PU to ask you have to give him something no matter where you are.
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