Checked swing-D3K

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.

This is the "advanced" mechanic I referred to earlier...it's more of a baseball thing (as shown by the MLB manual quoted above), but it's not something I do. It's super late here...I will post responses to joseph's questions tomorrow.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

From the MLB Umpire Manual

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

On the contrary, this actually keeps the "chaos" you mentioned from happening and gives the batter a chance to advance. I'll let you umpires decide if that applies to the various divisions of softball, but I didn't just dream that up.

At the pro level, this works. I'm scared to think what base umpires will start doing at the amateur level though.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

At the pro level, this works. I'm scared to think what base umpires will start doing at the amateur level though.

LOL. Very good point. The police would probably be involved before the dust settled.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

What a crock. How often do we see a catcher field a X-2 pitch on the hop when the batter checks his/her swing, immediately hops up and tags the batter still in the box, and then asks the PU to check with his/her partner for the call? Once the partner comes up with the "Yes she did!" call, does the catcher tag the batter again? Of course not!

[Mbilica]

This situation happened to me in a baseball game, except that we ruled no swing. There was a runner on 2nd and 1 out with 1-2 on the batter. I was behind the plate, and I could tell without help that he didn't go, but when the ball was dropped I called "ball" as I do for every ball. Despite this, the batter ran down to first base. The catcher recovered the loose ball and threw out the runner at 3rd for the 2nd out. I looked up and saw the batter and first and I brought him back. He made the smart play, though. You DONT NEED to wait for an umpire's decision on a swing to run to 1st. There is no penalty for running down to first. He came back and struck out on the next pitch. I would coach my players to do this everytime if I was still coaching.

So, as an umpire, I see no reason to subvert the normal procedures for umpires. The base umpire should only rule on checked swings if the HP umpire requests help. I also umpire softball and the procedure should be the same.

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[youngump]

Baseball is not in the same place as softball on this. From the MLB rulebook:

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire."


In a softball game, if I call ball 4 and as a result the runners advance and then we determine it was actually strike three, I'd be inclined to bring the runner back. This wasn't a stolen base it was a reversal of a call that put one team in jeopardy.

And the OP, I also think is quite clear, in baseball or softball, this is an out.

But let's change the OP just a bit. Ball in the dirt, checked swing that BU will call a strike if asked. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher and then the OC calls time and wanders out to ask the umpire to get help. (Not how it's supposed to work but it happens). How would you untangle the mess there? (My inclination is to decide it's too late to go for help.)

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by youngump

Baseball is not in the same place as softball on this. From the MLB rulebook:

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire."


In a softball game, if I call ball 4 and as a result the runners advance and then we determine it was actually strike three, I'd be inclined to bring the runner back. This wasn't a stolen base it was a reversal of a call that put one team in jeopardy.

And the OP, I also think is quite clear, in baseball or softball, this is an out.

But let's change the OP just a bit. Ball in the dirt, checked swing that BU will call a strike if asked. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher and then the OC calls time and wanders out to ask the umpire to get help. (Not how it's supposed to work but it happens). How would you untangle the mess there? (My inclination is to decide it's too late to go for help.)

You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request no matter in what position the BU was in.
But not so in NFHS ball-- the PU can ignore the request.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by MT 73

Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request.
But not so in NFHS ball.

He can ask me all he wants. I officiate OBR, but I will never rule a checked swing a strike from B or C unless it is blatantly obvious, in which case the plate guy should have seen it. I have no angle from B or C to determine if the batter swung.

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[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Nonsense. If you know what to look for as a base umpire, you can get that call correct from anywhere.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

There is no penalty for running down to first. He came back and struck out on the next pitch. I would coach my players to do this everytime if I was still coaching.

I don't coach my players to run to first every single time they strike out, but I will tell you that I take advantage of all the "coaches" behind the screen when they start screaming "RUN" after a 3rd strike hits the dirt. They'll usually scream RUN every time, regardless of how many outs, or whether or not first base is occupied. So I just let the batter run because, 90% of the time, the catcher panics and unnecessarily throws that ball to first while the runner on first is stealing second unnoticed. If I don't hear the DC remind their catcher to hold that ball in that situation, I just let the chaos take place naturally.

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

I don't coach my players to run to first every single time they strike out, but I will tell you that I take advantage of all the "coaches" behind the screen when they start screaming "RUN" after a 3rd strike hits the dirt. They'll usually scream RUN every time, regardless of how many outs, or whether or not first base is occupied. So I just let the batter run because, 90% of the time, the catcher panics and unnecessarily throws that ball to first while the runner on first is stealing second unnoticed. If I don't hear the DC remind their catcher to hold that ball in that situation, I just let the chaos take place naturally.

When I coached I would always tell my girls if the uncaught 3rd strike was in or not in effect.
And with 2 outs and bases loaded I would remind my catcher to step on the plate if she failed to catch strike 3.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Posting this because I promised a fellow umpire I would.

2 outs. 0-2 count. Checked swing, ball touches the ground, F2 fires to F3 (Batter isn't running),
F3 touches 1B. No call by BU.

DC (or F2, whatever) appeals the check swing. F3 says, "yes, she went".

At this point F3 is leaving the field after tossing the ball to the circle.

Can you see what's about to happen here?

BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.

I disagree. The defense properly executed the appropriate play. No need to do it again because the umpires were late to the party.