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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:19am
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So if you call "ball" you have told the runner she doesn't have a need to run - so she doesn't, yet then it's on her if you change your mind?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:26am
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I have heard two recommendations on this particular play:

1. As previously mentioned, PU immediately goes to BU on the check swing without waiting to be asked by defense.

2. PU refuses (in rule sets allowing it) the request to check with BU and sticks with the call of no swing and a ball.

I prefer option 1. Get the call made and let the players play.

My opinion of Option 2 is that it can create more problems than it solves. Yes, it may resolve that play at that point in the game, but can become a problem later with the umpire being perceived as too good to get help on a checked swing.

FWIW, I have NEVER heard of a teaching in softball that allows the BU to call the strike without a request from the PU.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
It will cause a problem when you are required to go on a checked swing and your partner says she swung. This has nothing to do with preventative umpiring.


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"No she didn't-- Ball!"
Then I hear, "Blue-- can you go for help"?
I step out, point at my partner and ask, "Did she go?"
He says "Yes she did"
I respond, "Strike 3--ball is down" ( As per Jim Evan's manual) or I say,
"Strike 3--"No catch!" while giving the safe signal.
How will this cause a problem?

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 10:43am.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
"No she didn't-- Ball!"
Then I hear, "Blue-- can you go for help"?
I step out, point at my partner and ask, "Did she go?"
He says "Yes she did"
I respond, "Strike 3--ball is down" ( As per Jim Evan's manual) or I say,
"Strike 3--"No catch!" while giving the safe signal.
How will this cause a problem?


Just say BALL. You're implying she either didn't or you don't know. Saying she didn't is not acceptable.


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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
Just say BALL. You're implying she either didn't or you don't know. Saying she didn't is not acceptable.


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I was trained by some very impressive clinicians to do it the way I described.
I am sure you are a very nice, skilled umpire but since I do not know you from a can of paint I will trust their advice over yours.
But thank you for sharing.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 11:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
BU's call is, the 3rd strike wasn't effective until it was appealed to him, hence F3's touch of 1B did not result in an out. It has to be touched again.
What a crock. How often do we see a catcher field a X-2 pitch on the hop when the batter checks his/her swing, immediately hops up and tags the batter still in the box, and then asks the PU to check with his/her partner for the call? Once the partner comes up with the "Yes she did!" call, does the catcher tag the batter again? Of course not!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
I was trained by some very impressive clinicians to do it the way I described.
I am sure you are a very nice, skilled umpire but since I do not know you from a can of paint I will trust their advice over yours.
But thank you for sharing.


Not in softball. Maybe these were baseball clinicians.


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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 73 View Post
I was trained by some very impressive clinicians to do it the way I described.
I am sure you are a very nice, skilled umpire but since I do not know you from a can of paint I will trust their advice over yours.
But thank you for sharing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
Not in softball. Maybe these were baseball clinicians.
Impressive clinicians are now 0 for 2 in softball rules and mechanics.

But, no, thank YOU for sharing.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 03:05pm
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When he brought up Jim Evans' manual, I realized where he was coming from.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 05:02pm
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This situation happened to me in a baseball game, except that we ruled no swing. There was a runner on 2nd and 1 out with 1-2 on the batter. I was behind the plate, and I could tell without help that he didn't go, but when the ball was dropped I called "ball" as I do for every ball. Despite this, the batter ran down to first base. The catcher recovered the loose ball and threw out the runner at 3rd for the 2nd out. I looked up and saw the batter and first and I brought him back. He made the smart play, though. You DONT NEED to wait for an umpire's decision on a swing to run to 1st. There is no penalty for running down to first. He came back and struck out on the next pitch. I would coach my players to do this everytime if I was still coaching.

So, as an umpire, I see no reason to subvert the normal procedures for umpires. The base umpire should only rule on checked swings if the HP umpire requests help. I also umpire softball and the procedure should be the same.

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Last edited by Mbilica; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 05:05pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 05:22pm
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Baseball is not in the same place as softball on this. From the MLB rulebook:

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire."


In a softball game, if I call ball 4 and as a result the runners advance and then we determine it was actually strike three, I'd be inclined to bring the runner back. This wasn't a stolen base it was a reversal of a call that put one team in jeopardy.

And the OP, I also think is quite clear, in baseball or softball, this is an out.

But let's change the OP just a bit. Ball in the dirt, checked swing that BU will call a strike if asked. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher and then the OC calls time and wanders out to ask the umpire to get help. (Not how it's supposed to work but it happens). How would you untangle the mess there? (My inclination is to decide it's too late to go for help.)
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 05:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
Baseball is not in the same place as softball on this. From the MLB rulebook:

"Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base
umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of
a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in
jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher
must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is
reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the
plate umpire."


In a softball game, if I call ball 4 and as a result the runners advance and then we determine it was actually strike three, I'd be inclined to bring the runner back. This wasn't a stolen base it was a reversal of a call that put one team in jeopardy.

And the OP, I also think is quite clear, in baseball or softball, this is an out.

But let's change the OP just a bit. Ball in the dirt, checked swing that BU will call a strike if asked. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher and then the OC calls time and wanders out to ask the umpire to get help. (Not how it's supposed to work but it happens). How would you untangle the mess there? (My inclination is to decide it's too late to go for help.)
You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 07:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
There is no penalty for running down to first. He came back and struck out on the next pitch. I would coach my players to do this everytime if I was still coaching.
I don't coach my players to run to first every single time they strike out, but I will tell you that I take advantage of all the "coaches" behind the screen when they start screaming "RUN" after a 3rd strike hits the dirt. They'll usually scream RUN every time, regardless of how many outs, or whether or not first base is occupied. So I just let the batter run because, 90% of the time, the catcher panics and unnecessarily throws that ball to first while the runner on first is stealing second unnoticed. If I don't hear the DC remind their catcher to hold that ball in that situation, I just let the chaos take place naturally.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
You should ask for help in a timely fashion, but frankly, if the BU is in B or C position, you should avoid asking for help anyhow...

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Since we are talking baseball-- in MLB-- OBR-- the plate umpire must go for help on a checked swing request no matter in what position the BU was in.
But not so in NFHS ball-- the PU can ignore the request.

Last edited by MT 73; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 08:05pm.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaincoach View Post
I don't coach my players to run to first every single time they strike out, but I will tell you that I take advantage of all the "coaches" behind the screen when they start screaming "RUN" after a 3rd strike hits the dirt. They'll usually scream RUN every time, regardless of how many outs, or whether or not first base is occupied. So I just let the batter run because, 90% of the time, the catcher panics and unnecessarily throws that ball to first while the runner on first is stealing second unnoticed. If I don't hear the DC remind their catcher to hold that ball in that situation, I just let the chaos take place naturally.
When I coached I would always tell my girls if the uncaught 3rd strike was in or not in effect.
And with 2 outs and bases loaded I would remind my catcher to step on the plate if she failed to catch strike 3.
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