Missed plate after home run

[MT 73]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The NCAA rule for runner assistance violations only occur during a live ball. See rule 12.8.3.

That's right. Thanks.
I do not do NCAA but I think the same rule applies USA and NHFS.
Now in this case was the appeal legit?
Does the ball have to be made live for an appeal in NCAA?

[BretMan]

NFHS: It's not clear if assisting the runner could only be called during a live ball. Their rule says that a coach may not assist a runner "during playing action". Does that mean when the ball is live? Nothing in the their case book seems to address this point.

USA/ASA: Their rule states that the ball must be live to call assisting a runner. But...they also have a case play where a runner misses home plate, after on over the fence home run, and is pushed back toward the plate just before entering the dugout. The ruling is that this runner would be out. So, it's the lone exception to their rule.

This sounds like one of those rules where the printed rule pretty much matches throughout multiple organizations, but they've issued interpretations that deviate away from each other, based on various "what if" and "maybe" scenarios.

Kind of like with an intentionally dropped ball. The rules all agree that you can't intentionally drop the ball in certain situations. But I can think of at least four different ways that a "dropped ball" is defined by four different sanctioning bodies!

[MT 73]

The USA book talks about a runner who misses home plate and is assisted back to the plate as out in a live ball situation. ( Section 7 Exception E)
Where is the rule about this being true during a dead ball?

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by MT 73

The USA book talks about a runner who misses home plate and is assisted back to the plate as out in a live ball situation. ( Section 7 Exception E)
Where is the rule about this being true during a dead ball?

USA case play, last sentence.

PLAY 8.7-12
R1 slides and misses home plate. The on-deck batter pushes R1 back toward home plate.
RULING: The ball becomes dead when the on-deck batter assists R1 after scoring. R1 is ruled out and the run nullified. “Dead ball” runner assistance only occurs after a runner has scored. (8-7E EXCEPTION)

[BretMan]

That's the case play I was remembering. But now...upon further review...I'm thinking that maybe it's not saying what I thought it said.

While that last sentence seems to suggest that you can have runner assistance when the ball is dead under a certain circumstance, the play itself happened during a live ball. My memory was that there is a case play with the miss of home coming during a dead ball. But I wasn't able to find that one so maybe it doesn't exist!

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by BretMan

That's the case play I was remembering. But now...upon further review...I'm thinking that maybe it's not saying what I thought it said.

While that last sentence seems to suggest that you can have runner assistance when the ball is dead under a certain circumstance, the play itself happened during a live ball. My memory was that there is a case play with the miss of home coming during a dead ball. But I wasn't able to find that one so maybe it doesn't exist!

I thought the same thing as you, until a reread the rule and then the case play and realized what it is actually saying. Whoever worded it could have done a much better job. It should say, The only time the ball becomes dead for runner assistance is after a runner has scored. The way it reads now it is very easy to mistake for the runner is out if assisted after scoring during a dead ball.

I thought I had deleted the post but apparently it didnt.

[Robmoz]

The natural conundrum is that withholding the ball until the runner corrects her base-running blunder by physically touching home plate (or, more to the point, until the runner indicates that she has failed to do so) is a tip-off to both the defense and offense that the umpire observed the runner missing home plate, which, naturally, isn't something an umpire should be communicating to either team until and unless an appeal is requested.

The NCAA attempted to solve the crisis by issuing the following statement: "By rule, with the ball out of play, the defense cannot appeal a missed base until the ball is put back in play, the defense is in position, the next batter summoned to the batter’s box and the umpire indicates 'Play Ball.'"

The NCAA's interpretation is at odds with its rulebook, which may necessitate a rules change this offseason to specifically cover this situation.

Even the aforementioned NCAA-issued bulletin incorrectly cites the phrase "ball is put back in play" for Rule 7.1.2.2.3 when that specific rule says no such thing. It says "places a new ball into the game." "The game" encompasses all aspects of events on the field—from beginning to end—and includes both live and dead ball periods. "In play," however, refers only to live ball action. The language should be changed to reflect the rest of the rulebook to eliminate this inconsistency.

But that's softball, where dead ball appeals are valid, as they are in high school, where "Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

USA case play, last sentence.

PLAY 8.7-12
R1 slides and misses home plate. The on-deck batter pushes R1 back toward home plate.
RULING: The ball becomes dead when the on-deck batter assists R1 after scoring. R1 is ruled out and the run nullified. “Dead ball” runner assistance only occurs after a runner has scored. (8-7E EXCEPTION)

But at the point of the assistance, the ball was live. IMO, this rule should be change to include runners who are legally advancing during a dead ball period.