Players standing in the dugout openings

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Andy

...I've already heard of some local areas and state HS associations requiring them. It won't happen from a national standpoint until there is a safety standard established similar to the NOCSAE stamp for batting helmets. Last I heard, NOCSAE hasn't even been asked to start developing a standard....

I wonder about the liability risk for these local organizations of requiring a piece of safety equipment for which there are no standards. Such equipment can fail, can become old and subject to being damaged, etc.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I wonder about the liability risk for these local organizations of requiring a piece of safety equipment for which there are no standards. Such equipment can fail, can become old and subject to being damaged, etc.

There is a national organization--Little League--that mandates dangling throat guards for catchers. There are no standards for those. I would have to believe LLHQ has done its homework from a liability standpoint, and don't see any risk.

[Mountaincoach]

The sad thing is anyone with common sense realizes the facemasks are a very good thing, but organizations are caught studying the points you guys are making in order to satisfy the lawyers, current lawsuits, and future lawsuits. For example, I'm being told the primary reason that my state's high school athletic association is hesitant to mandate the masks is because of the ongoing litigations already in process. Just this past week, we've watched one college signee possibly lose her entire career due to a line shot and severe facial trauma, while another took a ridiculously scary shot to a facemask and pitched the very next pitch of the ballgame. That's all the science and study I need. So it falls to the coaches, parents, and the players to do the right thing. The umpires should not be required to police it until hard rules are established, and we can't wait until a kid gets killed before the organizations do the right thing.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

The sad thing is anyone with common sense realizes the facemasks are a very good thing,...,The umpires should not be required to police it ever until hard rules are established, and we can't wait until a kid gets killed before the organizations do the right thing.

There, I fixed it for you.

There are risks, and we can't prevent everything, including the low probability occurrence. Yes, you saw two cases, one without a mask and one with a mask. If the parent/coach/player thinks it's a good idea, then wear a mask -- heck, wear a catcher's mask when you pitch (I also work slow pitch, and this is becoming common). But don't involve the umpire, don't make it mandatory. I don't want to check facemask and look for a disappearing NOSCAE sticker.

I also don't want some rule maker making a rule they don't have to enforce, or is just "for show". For example, Manny mentioned the LL attached throat guard, which is added to a mask with a built in throat guard! That tells me the rule makers are out of touch with the equipment and the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

Manny....my point exactly. I'm just trying to find out if it is more widespread than just here.




I've already heard of some local areas and state HS associations requiring them. It won't happen from a national standpoint until there is a safety standard established similar to the NOCSAE stamp for batting helmets. Last I heard, NOCSAE hasn't even been asked to start developing a standard....

ASTM would be the organization responsible for determining the appropriate standard and initiate testing. I believe that ASTM will do that when someone commissions/pays them to do so.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

But don't involve the umpire, don't make it mandatory. I don't want to check facemask and look for a disappearing NOSCAE sticker.

Nobody "wants" to check equipment, but you will if a mandatory rule is ever passed requiring the masks. Don't get me wrong, I see it the same way you do--coaches, schools, and parents should be the ones responsible for the safety of the players on the field. But, for whatever reason, somebody laid the responsibility of equipment inspections on the umpires a long time ago. And, if facemasks become a requirement by rule, they'll make you guys inspect those too. Is it fair to the umpires?--No. Does it spread even more possible liability onto the umpires?--Yes. But that's the world we live in nowadays.

And yes, the throat guard requirement by Little League is almost laughable nowadays. My team participated in a tournament once that was using Little League rules. My catcher had a modern mask with a built-in throat guard that literally touched her chest guard already. The umpire asked me to get a hanging throat guard before the game started. I didn't argue. I just found one and attached it to the helmet. And the throat guard protected the front of the chest guard very well throughout the tournament.

[CecilOne]

After a scary one in the throat, another in the side of my neck, and a third on the top edge of my chest guard, I added a dangling throat protector.
Not direct shots, ricochets off catcher.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Andy

The last couple of years, there has been an increase in this particular item, but this year during our HS Season it seems to have really increased....

Several umpires are making a point of addressing this in either the pre-game or during the game. I heard of one umpire that stopped the game four different times during an at-bat to tell players not to stand in the opening to the dugout.

I haven't worked with any of the "dugout enforcers" this year, but last year I had several of my partners pull this stunt in HS games. At a particular high school here with large dugout openings, between innings, I asked him which rule he was enforcing. He said "the one where they can't stand there", so I asked him to show me in the book after the game, so I too could learn this rule.

We didn't have much of a postgame...he drove home still wearing his shin guards and chest protector.

[Tru_in_Blu]

In my area, we have several fields that have a wide open dugout. Some have a cement slab with a dugout built over it with steel posts in the front supporting the roof. Others are just a bench along either of the foul lines which help demark dead ball territory.

We have had some bucket-huggers who think they can give their pitchers signals from live ball territory. Those have to get into dead ball territory.

At one National that I attended, the UICs allowed the bucket-huggers to have their buckets on the cement portion of the dugout and their dangly feet to rest in live ball territory. The logic given was that they could move their feet out of the way if a ball came in that direction. I don't necessarily agree with that argument, but it's what we were told.

I have no problem with someone standing in a dugout opening that is defined by fencing or other construction material. Seems to me like much ado about nothing.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

. My catcher had a modern mask with a built-in throat guard that literally touched her chest guard already. .

The requirement is there because too many catchers raise their heads instead of tucking - exposing the throat. The dangler swings into place when they raise their heads, protecting the throat.