NFHS Foul Ball

[Pepsidude1]

After a batter fouls a pitch back to the backstop, retrieved by the catcher, must the catcher return this directly back to the pitcher? Or can she throw to another player who then returns the ball to the pitcher.?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Pepsidude1

After a batter fouls a pitch back to the backstop, retrieved by the catcher, must the catcher return this directly back to the pitcher? Or can she throw to another player who then returns the ball to the pitcher.?

From the NFHS Case Book:

6.3.2 SITUATION C:

(F.P.) The bases are empty and the batter has a count of no balls and one strike. On the next pitch, the batter hits a foul ball which the catcher retrieves and throws to third base.

RULING: A ball is awarded to the batter and the count becomes one ball and two strikes.

[Pepsidude1]

Yes, that is what the case book has. So let me break that down one more level - does it matter if there is no one on base or if we have runners on?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Pepsidude1

Yes, that is what the case book has. So let me break that down one more level - does it matter if there is no one on base or if we have runners on?

I don't think it does. It's a foul ball; there are no possible plays that can be made on runners. So a throw to third base would violate the rule.

[MT 73]

We use USA for HS and the only time the catcher can throw to a base without making a play is after a strikeout.
Same penalty as in NHHS.

[Pepsidude1]

NFHS rule certainly needs to be revisited. Applying common sense to this foul ball situation would lead one to say the ball is essentially 'dead' and nothing can happen until the ball is put back in play.

NCAA describes this perfectly:
The catcher must return the ball directly to the pitcher after a foul tip and each pitch not contacted.

Exceptions:

1. To play on a base runner.

2. When the batter becomes a base runner.

3. After a strikeout.

4. After a putout or an attempted putout made by the catcher.

5. When a checked swing is appealed on a third strike.

6. When the batter is not entitled to first base but runs anyway.

7. An errant throw intended for the pitcher.

[Manny A]

And I would counter that the NCAA rule is flawed in that a pitch the catcher fields on a short hop and then throws the ball to the third baseman would be nothing if the batter swung and nicked it (foul ball), but would be an extra ball on the batter if she didn't contact it.

Quite frankly, I don't care for the rule altogether. Who cares that the catcher threw the ball to another fielder who then, in turn, throws it to the pitcher? As long as there isn't a delay in the pitcher being ready to deliver the next pitch, no biggie. Charge an extra ball to the batter if the catcher's throw to another fielder is wild, gets muffed by that fielder, or that fielder's subsequent throw to the pitcher causes a delay.

[Pepsidude1]

I agree!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MT 73

We use USA for HS and the only time the catcher can throw to a base without making a play is after a strikeout.
Same penalty as in NHHS.

You may want to re-read that rule 6-7.B. Pay particular attention to the EXCEPTION (does not apply with a runner on base). The catcher can throw to any base without making a play as long as a runner is on base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And I would counter that the NCAA rule is flawed in that a pitch the catcher fields on a short hop and then throws the ball to the third baseman would be nothing if the batter swung and nicked it (foul ball), but would be an extra ball on the batter if she didn't contact it.

Quite frankly, I don't care for the rule altogether. Who cares that the catcher threw the ball to another fielder who then, in turn, throws it to the pitcher? As long as there isn't a delay in the pitcher being ready to deliver the next pitch, no biggie. Charge an extra ball to the batter if the catcher's throw to another fielder is wild, gets muffed by that fielder, or that fielder's subsequent throw to the pitcher causes a delay.

So, some of us umpired in the days before this rule was adopted. After every foul ball retrieved by a catcher in a men's fastpitch game, the ball was ALWAYS thrown to someone other than the pitcher (F3 or F5, depending in which side the ball was retrieved), who was no where near the pitcher, who then threw the ball to someone else who wasn't the pitcher, who had to pat the pitcher on the a$$ before handing him the ball. I am conservatively stating this added AT LEAST 10 minutes of non-action to every game.

In today's female game, there would be another team meeting with high fives and hand slaps, after every foul ball, just like the start of every inning, and the end of every request for time by a defensive player. There is no reason to invite more stoppages; allowing that throw to someone other than the pitcher, and to start the next pitch sequence, would be an open invitation to more "huddles" that aren't conferences.

Since we have so few tools available to keep the game under 2 hours, anymore, I would be really unhappy if that rule was removed (and we couldn't begin a reasonable timing sequence between pitches).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You may want to re-read that rule 6-7.B. Pay particular attention to the EXCEPTION (does not apply with a runner on base). The catcher can throw to any base without making a play as long as a runner is on base.

Does that exception also apply in FED play? I couldn't find it in the rule, but the case plays only address situations with no base runners.

[fredhjr]

Originally Posted by Pepsidude1

NFHS rule certainly needs to be revisited. Applying common sense to this foul ball situation would lead one to say the ball is essentially 'dead' and nothing can happen until the ball is put back in play.

NCAA describes this perfectly:
The catcher must return the ball directly to the pitcher after a foul tip and each pitch not contacted.

Exceptions:

1. To play on a base runner.

2. When the batter becomes a base runner.

3. After a strikeout.

4. After a putout or an attempted putout made by the catcher.

5. When a checked swing is appealed on a third strike.

6. When the batter is not entitled to first base but runs anyway.

7. An errant throw intended for the pitcher.

Foul tip is live, foul ball is dead, correct?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by fredhjr

Foul tip is live, foul ball is dead, correct?

Yes.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, some of us umpired in the days before this rule was adopted. After every foul ball retrieved by a catcher in a men's fastpitch game, the ball was ALWAYS thrown to someone other than the pitcher (F3 or F5, depending in which side the ball was retrieved), who was no where near the pitcher, who then threw the ball to someone else who wasn't the pitcher, who had to pat the pitcher on the a$$ before handing him the ball. I am conservatively stating this added AT LEAST 10 minutes of non-action to every game.

In today's female game, there would be another team meeting with high fives and hand slaps, after every foul ball, just like the start of every inning, and the end of every request for time by a defensive player. There is no reason to invite more stoppages; allowing that throw to someone other than the pitcher, and to start the next pitch sequence, would be an open invitation to more "huddles" that aren't conferences.

Since we have so few tools available to keep the game under 2 hours, anymore, I would be really unhappy if that rule was removed (and we couldn't begin a reasonable timing sequence between pitches).

I was actually playing in the Air Force when this was going on. As an outfielder on the base team, it drove me crazy. It happened more frequently when one of the pitchers was struggling to find the strike zone. As a pitcher on my intramural team, I'd not allow the catcher to throw the ball to anyone but me.

I was very glad when that rule was put in, not sure exactly what year it was.

I agree, we don't need any more artificial delays. In the time that I've been umpiring, I think I called a ball for this violation only once.