video says it all

[Insane Blue]

Umpire makes possibly the worst call ever

[BlueDevilRef]

Ok. That's pretty bad. Never anticipate the call, only anticipate the play

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

wow

[Tru_in_Blu]

Yup, that was pretty bad.

I hope he got to see the video.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Yup, that was pretty bad.

I hope he got to see the video.

He'll probably never STOP seeing it....

[OhioTex]

So, as home umpire and partner what do you do when coach challanges the call?

[Rich]

In NFHS baseball, a point of emphasis this year is that umpires should not be coming together to discuss calls just cause a coach asks. I was quite happy to see this, as too many umpires think coaches are entitled to "appeal" anything.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by Rich

In NFHS baseball, a point of emphasis this year is that umpires should not be coming together to discuss calls just cause a coach asks. I was quite happy to see this, as too many umpires think coaches are entitled to "appeal" anything.

A FRICKIN MEN!! I don't know how often I tell coaches no when they bellow "ask for help, ask for help" on a close play. Even worse is when you are taking care of it and your partner approaches. It simply gives the coach the chance to engage them. Unless I ask you, stay away and stay quiet.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

A FRICKIN MEN!! I don't know how often I tell coaches no when they bellow "ask for help, ask for help" on a close play. Even worse is when you are taking care of it and your partner approaches. It simply gives the coach the chance to engage them. Unless I ask you, stay away and stay quiet.

I'm truly and honestly trying to learn here. I'm not trying to pick. But I have to ask, if there's a chance that you have badly blown a call, and a coach is saying "ask for help" while your partner has already started walking toward you, what is more important--your autonomy while following the rule OR the right call? When a coach says "ask for help", I can tell you from my own perspective, he or she is saying "Look, you blew that badly, I'm trying to save you here and give you a big hint that you need to ask for help." The game is not about the umpires. It's not about the coaches. And it's not about the fans in the stands. It's about the kids playing on the field, and their confidence in the adults to do the right thing to the best of their ability. Again, I am truly trying to understand and ask the question here as opposed to standing on a field in front of a crowd or camera and asking these question. But why can't the umpires just simply trust each other and realize that your colleague isn't going to overturn a call unless they are 100% sure it needs to be overturned? Would it be better if the other umpire looked at the coach and said "The rule does not allow me to say anything unless he asks for help?" I'd highly doubt that, but that is the honest answer. And I'm not talking about bang-bang judgement calls. I'm talking about things like a called out on a tag when the ball is literally laying on the ground beside the runner who just slid into third as a prime example. I've seen that very scenario happen, and the home plate umpire just stood there quietly while the entire universe screamed "he dropped the ball" to the 3rd base umpire who refused to even look at the home plate umpire.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Mountaincoach

I'm truly and honestly trying to learn here. I'm not trying to pick. But I have to ask, if there's a chance that you have badly blown a call, and a coach is saying "ask for help" while your partner has already started walking toward you, what is more important--your autonomy while following the rule OR the right call? When a coach says "ask for help", I can tell you from my own perspective, he or she is saying "Look, you blew that badly, I'm trying to save you here and give you a big hint that you need to ask for help." The game is not about the umpires. It's not about the coaches. And it's not about the fans in the stands. It's about the kids playing on the field, and their confidence in the adults to do the right thing to the best of their ability. Again, I am truly trying to understand and ask the question here as opposed to standing on a field in front of a crowd or camera and asking these question. But why can't the umpires just simply trust each other and realize that your colleague isn't going to overturn a call unless they are 100% sure it needs to be overturned? Would it be better if the other umpire looked at the coach and said "The rule does not allow me to say anything unless he asks for help?" I'd highly doubt that, but that is the honest answer. And I'm not talking about bang-bang judgement calls. I'm talking about things like a called out on a tag when the ball is literally laying on the ground beside the runner who just slid into third as a prime example. I've seen that very scenario happen, and the home plate umpire just stood there quietly while the entire universe screamed "he dropped the ball" to the 3rd base umpire who refused to even look at the home plate umpire.

If it were only that simple. And only that honest and honorable. And not picking and choosing a rule to selectively ignore.

For every umpire out there that will refuse to ask for help in an obvious "help" setting such as you describe, there is an equal (or higher) number of coaches that simply want to be able to challenge every judgment made, right or wrong, that doesn't go FOR their team. And the same number that will go ballistic if an umpire does get help and the reversal goes against their team, even if the reversal is clear and obvious to everyone else on the field.

There are umpires out there, just like coaches, that think they can overrule their fellow umpire. And any and every time that happens, the game goes to hell, sooner or later, as one umpire wants to substitute his judgment for the other umpire's judgment. Soon, every judgment call is being questioned; and we are no longer playing softball, the issue becomes which coach can push the envelope further.

You are correct when you say the game is not about the umpires, the coaches, or the parents. But is also isn't about the kids, either; that is simply the most often repeated mantra of those that cannot or will not think beyond that, and want things their way. The integrity of the game itself is the most important concern all should have; you can still teach quality life lessons to those kids when human error happens.

Teach them that human beings make mistakes; teach them that they need to have the internal strength and fortitude to overcome human mistakes, rather than blame others. Teach them that life isn't always fair, and that the outcome of any part of their life, just like a game, can often be subject to things they don't like or agree with, and simply cannot control. Teach them that a softball game (ANY GAME) isn't life or death; teach them that losing a game may not be as much fun as winning, but it is still just a game.

It may not be who you are; I don't know you. But I do know, in my 44th year in this game, that too many coaches and parents seem more focused on the outcome of a game, and their ability to CONTROL, rather than the life lessons that the game represents. And when the game has no integrity because the parties think there are no rules, manners, respect, or proper protocol, then it has nothing for "the kids". That's a mantra, not an ethic.

As I suggested in an earlier reply, I would be more open to revisiting umpire judgment when the coaches agree to replay their decision with the umpires when they make a stupid coaching mistake.

[Mountaincoach]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

If it were only that simple. And only that honest and honorable. And not picking and choosing a rule to selectively ignore.

For every umpire out there that will refuse to ask for help in an obvious "help" setting such as you describe, there is an equal (or higher) number of coaches that simply want to be able to challenge every judgment made, right or wrong, that doesn't go FOR their team. And the same number that will go ballistic if an umpire does get help and the reversal goes against their team, even if the reversal is clear and obvious to everyone else on the field.

There are umpires out there, just like coaches, that think they can overrule their fellow umpire. And any and every time that happens, the game goes to hell, sooner or later, as one umpire wants to substitute his judgment for the other umpire's judgment. Soon, every judgment call is being questioned; and we are no longer playing softball, the issue becomes which coach can push the envelope further.

You are correct when you say the game is not about the umpires, the coaches, or the parents. But is also isn't about the kids, either; that is simply the most often repeated mantra of those that cannot or will not think beyond that, and want things their way. The integrity of the game itself is the most important concern all should have; you can still teach quality life lessons to those kids when human error happens.

Teach them that human beings make mistakes; teach them that they need to have the internal strength and fortitude to overcome human mistakes, rather than blame others. Teach them that life isn't always fair, and that the outcome of any part of their life, just like a game, can often be subject to things they don't like or agree with, and simply cannot control. Teach them that a softball game (ANY GAME) isn't life or death; teach them that losing a game may not be as much fun as winning, but it is still just a game.

It may not be who you are; I don't know you. But I do know, in my 44th year in this game, that too many coaches and parents seem more focused on the outcome of a game, and their ability to CONTROL, rather than the life lessons that the game represents. And when the game has no integrity because the parties think there are no rules, manners, respect, or proper protocol, then it has nothing for "the kids". That's a mantra, not an ethic.

As I suggested in an earlier reply, I would be more open to revisiting umpire judgment when the coaches agree to replay their decision with the umpires when they make a stupid coaching mistake.

Thanks. Very good reply and good points. I'm definitely not one of those win-at-all-costs type coaches. And yes, the integrity of the game is paramount and should be taught to the kids. And feel free to say "Hey stupid, why did you do that?" anytime you like. LOL.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Rich

In NFHS baseball, a point of emphasis this year is that umpires should not be coming together to discuss calls just cause a coach asks. I was quite happy to see this, as too many umpires think coaches are entitled to "appeal" anything.

I don't know that it is the Umpires that think this......I think it is the coaches that have determined that they have the right to "ask for help" on any call they don't like.....

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

I don't know that it is the Umpires that think this......I think it is the coaches that have determined that they have the right to "ask for help" on any call they don't like.....

Actually, that's just half the problem. The other half are umpires who believe it's better to acquiesce to those coaches to "keep the peace" than to tell those coaches to pound sand. Amazes me when my partner will come to me and say, "I'm not going to change my call, but I'm just here to make the coach think I'm getting help." I want to tell him/her, "Go back to your position and stop wasting daylight."

[refinks]

Mostly baseball umpire here, but this question can easily be applied at the softball level. I have always been taught by my instructors at the level I've worked (youth and HS JV, plus HS varsity level tournaments), that there is a particular rule of thumb when it comes to bang-bang plays.

I've been told that if you have a bang-bang play that you read what happened, and that if the fielder made a diving stop or a long range throw, you bang the kid out and reward the defense. But if the runner is hustling butt down the line and/or the fielder bobbles the ball and makes it a much closer play than it should be, then you reward the offense and call the runner safe. I'm talking about just plays at first base.

Have most of you other umpers been taught the same thing, or is this just something that is taught in my state? And if you have been taught, do you agree with that philosophy? Or do you have the philosophy that you make the call based on what you saw, no matter if the fielder made a great play or bobbled the ball 3 times before making the throw to first. I'm just curious what you guys think about it. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

[MD Longhorn]

I have heard people say that.

This usually tells me that the person is comfortable with the idea that he/she is unable to determine what happens first on a bang bang play. And it usually shows in the rest of their umpiring.

I have never understood why people continue to add or subtract things from an otherwise easy task. It's really simple... Decide which happened first and rule accordingly. Adding other things to judge or grade generally make you worse at your job.