video says it all

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

This usually tells me that the person is comfortable with the idea that he/she is unable to determine what happens first on a bang bang play.

Not sure if you mean comfortable with inability or uncomfortable with their own judgement.

And caring too much about spectator perception.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not sure if you mean comfortable with inability or uncomfortable with their own judgement.

And caring too much about spectator perception.

Yes. All of that.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by refinks

Mostly baseball umpire here, but this question can easily be applied at the softball level. I have always been taught by my instructors at the level I've worked (youth and HS JV, plus HS varsity level tournaments), that there is a particular rule of thumb when it comes to bang-bang plays.

I've been told that if you have a bang-bang play that you read what happened, and that if the fielder made a diving stop or a long range throw, you bang the kid out and reward the defense. But if the runner is hustling butt down the line and/or the fielder bobbles the ball and makes it a much closer play than it should be, then you reward the offense and call the runner safe. I'm talking about just plays at first base.

Have most of you other umpers been taught the same thing, or is this just something that is taught in my state? And if you have been taught, do you agree with that philosophy? Or do you have the philosophy that you make the call based on what you saw, no matter if the fielder made a great play or bobbled the ball 3 times before making the throw to first. I'm just curious what you guys think about it. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

Yes, I've heard this taught before and dismissed it then just as I would now. Rewarding a player for making it close is only not in the rule book, it is wrong..

BTW, if the player didn't execute the out, it must not have been that great a play, was it?

Call what you see.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by refinks

Mostly baseball umpire here, but this question can easily be applied at the softball level. I have always been taught by my instructors at the level I've worked (youth and HS JV, plus HS varsity level tournaments), that there is a particular rule of thumb when it comes to bang-bang plays.

I've been told that if you have a bang-bang play that you read what happened, and that if the fielder made a diving stop or a long range throw, you bang the kid out and reward the defense. But if the runner is hustling butt down the line and/or the fielder bobbles the ball and makes it a much closer play than it should be, then you reward the offense and call the runner safe. I'm talking about just plays at first base.

Have most of you other umpers been taught the same thing, or is this just something that is taught in my state? And if you have been taught, do you agree with that philosophy? Or do you have the philosophy that you make the call based on what you saw, no matter if the fielder made a great play or bobbled the ball 3 times before making the throw to first. I'm just curious what you guys think about it. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

Hell no. Don't call what the team "deserves". Call what you see. Call what happens. Get it right.

For example, if a catcher sets up low and away, and the pitch comes in belly-button high on the inside corner, and F2 misses it....guess what! THATS STILL A STRIKE! Don't bail out on the right call just because the players make it look bad.

Edit to add: That said, I will occasionally "sell" an out after a great defensive play even if the overhand out isn't required. That's the only way I "reward" a great athletic play. (And I only do this because a high-level evaluator suggested it after I "robotically" called an out on a great layout catch + obvious double-up live-ball appeal on the catch.)

[jmkupka]

Doesn't the runner who busts it down the line to beat the throw deserve the EXACT SAME amount of consideration as the fielder who makes a great play?

[Manny A]

I believe the "reward the player who wanted it more" philosophy has gone the way of the neighborhood play at second base on a double play. That used to be something that was taught years ago, at least in my experience, but is no longer endorsed by those who believe we need to make the right call, not the deserved call.

Besides, where do you draw the line? Sharp grounder to F5, who deflects it to F6. F6 grabs it with her bare hand, and guns it to first. Do we reward the defense for F6's play, or the offense for F5's muff? None of that should come into consideration.