Help!!!!!

oppool · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 25, 2003, 04:33pm

Ok this play happen last night in our league play which has brought discussion

B1 hits a fly ball that hits the outfield fence a 1' or more below the top and because of some crazy spin the ball carry over the fence untouched

Dispute is whether it should be a 2 base award, 4 base award or homerun

I believe the fence upto the top of it is considered part of the playing field so hitting the fence below the top of it and carrying over untouch is the same as the ball hitting the ground and carring over. Ground rule double

The other side is saying the ball hitting the fence anywhere in the air and then carryover untouch. Should be a Home Run

Any case book play, Rule book references or prior test question would be helpful. Adult beverages on the line

Thanks

Don

ChampaignBlue · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 25, 2003, 05:47pm

Assuming that it's physically possible, which I'm having trouble believing, ASA says fair ball that "leaves the playing field in fair territory without touching the ground or going through the fence" 8-6-H. Didn't do either, however, in definitions, we find that a ball caught after touching the fence is a "trapped ball" so there we find that the face of the fence is treated the same as the ground so I'd rule double.

Steve M · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 25, 2003, 07:28pm

I'll go with a homerun on this one. If a ball hits at or near the top of the fence and goes over, it's a homerun. I don't really see any difference with this one. It did not hit the ground or a person, so it can't be a 2-base award and I don't see that Mr Conseco had his head anywhere near the play, so it's not a 4-base award.

Steve M

greymule · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 25, 2003, 09:11pm

I've seen balls hit the flat of the fence and still go over. Since POE 25-D says, "A batted ball hitting the fence, going directly to a player, and then going over the fence in fair territory is a home run (FP) and a four base award (SP)," then we can assume the play in question is a home run.

Incidentally, the play described in POE 25-D is a 2-base award in baseball (OBR).

oppool · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Sep 25, 2003, 10:09pm

But I thought somewhere in past post we discussed a similiar situation and it was stated that POE 25-d was an error in the rule book and should be a 2 base award.

Was looking this up in different book and found 8-5-f in the NSA rule book that states a ball that strikes an object that aligns the field then bounds over would be awarded a ground rule double

Also believe there is a reason that ASA states TOP of fence then going over and not any part of the fence

The fence in all other cases become part of the field just like the ground. Such as catches off the fence.

This ball was clearly stated by both umpires calling not to hit the top of the fence but down at least a foot or more than spin over the fence untouched

Just a added thought in most MLB you will see a colored line just below the top of the fence. I believe this line is for the umps to be able to tell if the ball has cleared the fence or above the line for a ball going over to be considered a home-run. If not mistaken this happen in the MLB a few year back at one of the ball parks where the ball hit below the line and then went over the fence and the player was awarded a double
JMO

Don

[Edited by oppool on Sep 25th, 2003 at 11:24 PM]

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 06:44am

Somewhere in past post we discussed a similiar situation and it was stated that POE 25-d was an error in the rule book and should be a 2 base award.

I believe that in 2002, the "correct" answer on the ASA test was that this was a double, but that turned out to be wrong. POE 25-D is correct. But there is no error involved, just an award. (I guess that if the fielder bungled the play badly enough, he could be charged with an error.

If I were the umpire and a drive hit the bottom of the fence, ricocheted back off the outfielder's knee, and then sailed over the fence, I would award 4 bases in keeping with POE 25-D. The ball did not hit the ground and met the criteria according to the book.

The ASA book also contains the following general statement: "When a ball does not hit the ground and leaves the park in fair territory, it is a home run."

NSA is a different rule book. Can't address that.

chuck chopper · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 07:37am

Untouched by a player HR , if touched 4 base award.

MD Longhorn · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 10:29am

I can't find in any jurisdiction where the wall (any part of the wall) should be treated the same as the ground on a ball untouched by a player. This is a home run.

(The only ambiguity is the aforementioned "TOP of the wall" in the ASA rules which serves to confuse --- but even there I cannot find a rule that would make this not a home run.)

oppool - what kind of fence is this that would allow such a spin. I can't put in my brain a possibility that a ball travelling at a downward angle could possibly have enough spin to both travel UPward on the bounce, and also FOREward over the fence. At least, not if the fence is perpendicular to the ground.

gsf23 · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 10:36am

That fence had to have been damaged in some way or the guy who hit it is a frickin' brute.

greymule · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 26, 2003, 06:37pm

I think that if the fence is a flat stone wall, a ball hit from the plate can't hit flush and then make it up and over. However, many fences are made of thin wooden slats or flimsy chain link. When a hard drive hits near the top, the fence may briefly "give" more than it appears and then spring back quickly so that to a person watching, the apparently magical occurs. I've seen it happen a half dozen times in SP. I suspect that a slow motion camera would catch the fence bending, the ball rising, and then the fence springing back into place in front of the ball. The "lift" may come from the ball's hitting the uneven surface just right.

Even in MLB, the tops of some of the fences give enough that the ball can hit flush and make it over.

I have also seen balls, crushed by Mikens and other WMD, that have made sharp, seemingly impossible changes of direction in mid-air.

SC Ump · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 28, 2003, 07:10am

Quote:

Originally posted by oppool
...a fly ball that hits the outfield fence a 1' or more below the top and because of some crazy spin...

What am I going to call?

I'm going to call Sir Isaac Newton and tell him the the laws of gravity have ceased to exist. If it hit the fence and went over without hitting a fielder after hitting the fence, that's a home run. It doesn't matter what it looks like from 290 feet away.