Umpire: "No More." Coach: "OK.....chirp chirp" - Toss or ignore?

[teebob21]

Had a situation this weekend that is still bugging me. I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. Looking for advice...Juco vs good club team fall ball. Club team at bat. Batter puts her leg into an inside pitch and gets hit. I call the dead ball, and announce that the batter is staying here: it's a ball.

Club coach comes out, and does quite a song and dance about how the batter can do whatever she wants in the box (wrong). After I explain the college rule, he even demonstrates for everyone how "that's how they teach 'em to hit" (no, batters do not point their knee towards the catcher to swing). If it had been a Juco coach during the season, I probably would have and should have tossed him right there. My mistake, #1, I suppose.

I repeat to him that a batter cannot obviously attempt or allow themselves to be HBP. Walking away, he says something like I'm missing a page from my rulebook, and on top of it all, he finishes the sentence with "kid", which perks my ears back up. For those that don't know me, I am 32 with a bad case of permanent babyface. That said, you can see how long I have been on the field in my forum sig, and it has been a LONG time since anyone called me "kid". I ignore it; my mistake #2, in hindsight.

I've told him "Enough." I've walked in the other direction. I'm feeling like the moment has passed and the situation has been de-escalated. I've got my mask back on when he starts in again from the coach's box. I called time, pulled the mask off and said something like "Coach, I don't want to toss you from a scrimmage. Drop it: no more. Just drop it."

Coach says "OK, OK......drop it just like that call you made." ... or something like that loud enough for everyone to hear.

GROAN: What now? He's 50+ feet away. I feel like conflict management is the worst part of my game right now, and my recent posts probably prove that. Usually I talk too much and give way too much rope, but at the same time I don't want to be too quick on the trigger. That said, I said "no more" (which I know is a bad position to put myself in), and there was more.

Toss him now, or go back to ignoring him and move on? I know he should already be gone, but at this point, I've already missed the moment. Is the extra snide comment enough for the heave-ho?

[udbrky]

That's a paddlin.

What's softball's standard of practice? Look at post 6 here for baseball:

2017 Rule Changes/POE's Announced - Collegiate - Umpire-Empire

Once you make it clear that the line has been drawn, you have to stand to that and run them. Otherwise, you're just going to keep saying "knock it off" until one of you tires of the charade.

[robbie]

Obviously wrong, but one of our Umps once had this exchange:

Ump: "One more word and your gone"
Coach: "Word"
Ump: "Your gone"

[Rich]

Originally Posted by robbie

Obviously wrong, but one of our Umps once had this exchange:



Ump: "One more word and your gone"

Coach: "Word"

Ump: "Your gone"

Not right by the umpire, but the coach had it coming.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Well, I'd be happy to have someone call me "kid" nowadays.

I don't issue hard ultimatums to coaches. Things like "not another word" or "no more" can sometimes come across as a challenge to some belligerent species and they'll jump on it just thinking they're going to get the last word. (They aren't, of course, as we never lose that battle.)

Appealing to the coach that it was a scrimmage game, after all, is a good strategy. If he's that animated in a practice game, I can't imagine what he'd be like in a game that mattered.

As a precursor to ejection of a coach as a result of a debate, I'll often asked them: "Coach, is there anywhere else you'd rather be right now than coaching your team?" This usually takes a few seconds to sink in, which helps to defuse some of the emotion. The answer has always been "No." so far, at which point I'll say, "Good. Let's play ball." I've had good success with that tactic.

If conflict management or game management is what you consider to be your weakest point, you obviously have a focus to get better in that area. That's not to say go looking for opportunities to create conflict , but being more prepared in how to address issues as they come up. Clearly, getting inputs from this forum will provide you with several game management techniques.

Good luck.

[Andy]

First of all...I know exactly what I'm going to call you next time we work together......

My tactic has always been...."Coach. you've had your say, that's enough"
That seems to reinforce that I have heard him, but I don't want to hear any more.

Something like the "OK, OK" I would let go, but the parting shot on the call loud enough for others to hear has to be addressed...dump him....

[Tru_in_Blu]

I just remembered a situation with a fellow umpire in a game we were working. It was men's wreck league ball several years ago. I don't even remember the details of the argument and I don't believe I was asked to consult on the call (I was doing the bases).

In any case, the comment in the OP about "ears perked up" (rabbit or otherwise ) applies here. As the combatant was walking back to his dugout, he made some comment over his shoulder and at the end of it added "you pie face". No f-bombs or other obscenities were uttered. But my partner heard this and then literally chased the guy down where more arguing occurred and an ejection finally resulted.

I was watching all this from the middle infield being quite amused and tried hard to not laugh out loud. A couple of half innings later I approached my partner and asked what it was that set him off. He immediately started to get all red-faced again and said it was the "pie face" comment.

I used to watch the Boston Bruins in the late 60s and early 70s and they had a player John "Pie" McKenzie. That's the only reference I've ever heard to being a "pie face".

To this day, I'm not sure what the big deal was with that comment, but it certainly hit a major button for that umpire.

After that game, we took to calling him "Rambo".

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Had a situation this weekend that is still bugging me. I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. Looking for advice...Juco vs good club team fall ball. Club team at bat. Batter puts her leg into an inside pitch and gets hit. I call the dead ball, and announce that the batter is staying here: it's a ball.

Club coach comes out, and does quite a song and dance about how the batter can do whatever she wants in the box (wrong). After I explain the college rule, he even demonstrates for everyone how "that's how they teach 'em to hit" (no, batters do not point their knee towards the catcher to swing). If it had been a Juco coach during the season, I probably would have and should have tossed him right there. My mistake, #1, I suppose.

I repeat to him that a batter cannot obviously attempt or allow themselves to be HBP. Walking away, he says something like I'm missing a page from my rulebook, and on top of it all, he finishes the sentence with "kid", which perks my ears back up. For those that don't know me, I am 32 with a bad case of permanent babyface. That said, you can see how long I have been on the field in my forum sig, and it has been a LONG time since anyone called me "kid". I ignore it; my mistake #2, in hindsight.

I've told him "Enough." I've walked in the other direction. I'm feeling like the moment has passed and the situation has been de-escalated. I've got my mask back on when he starts in again from the coach's box.
.....

END of story !

Maybe after "kid" depending on tone & volume.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Had a situation this weekend that is still bugging me. I don't think I handled it as well as I could have. Looking for advice...Juco vs good club team fall ball. Club team at bat. Batter puts her leg into an inside pitch and gets hit. I call the dead ball, and announce that the batter is staying here: it's a ball.

Your judgment, nice call

Club coach comes out, and does quite a song and dance about how the batter can do whatever she wants in the box (wrong). After I explain the college rule, he even demonstrates for everyone how "that's how they teach 'em to hit" (no, batters do not point their knee towards the catcher to swing). If it had been a Juco coach during the season, I probably would have and should have tossed him right there. My mistake, #1, I suppose.

Even it if were, poor coaching does not exempt players from the proper application of the rules

I repeat to him that a batter cannot obviously attempt or allow themselves to be HBP. Walking away, he says something like I'm missing a page from my rulebook, and on top of it all, he finishes the sentence with "kid", which perks my ears back up. For those that don't know me, I am 32 with a bad case of permanent babyface. That said, you can see how long I have been on the field in my forum sig, and it has been a LONG time since anyone called me "kid". I ignore it; my mistake #2, in hindsight.

Well, I would call you a kid, too, but that doesn't mean I allow the coach to be an *******. OTOH, I might have asked the coach if he would care to protest the ruling. For all those thinking "no way", this is not something I've done as a smart ass, but when a coach is adamant I have no problem with a protest.

I've told him "Enough." I've walked in the other direction. I'm feeling like the moment has passed and the situation has been de-escalated. I've got my mask back on when he starts in again from the coach's box. I called time, pulled the mask off and said something like "Coach, I don't want to toss you from a scrimmage. Drop it: no more. Just drop it."

NEVER issue an ultimatum, it can easily backfire on you. But if you felt it necessary to stop the game, you probably should have dumped the coach then and moved on.

Coach says "OK, OK......drop it just like that call you made." ... or something like that loud enough for everyone to hear.

Yep, trying to be the nice guy and letting things go will come back to bite you in the ass.

GROAN: What now? He's 50+ feet away. I feel like conflict management is the worst part of my game right now, and my recent posts probably prove that. Usually I talk too much and give way too much rope, but at the same time I don't want to be too quick on the trigger. That said, I said "no more" (which I know is a bad position to put myself in), and there was more.

Toss him now, or go back to ignoring him and move on? I know he should already be gone, but at this point, I've already missed the moment. Is the extra snide comment enough for the heave-ho?

If you haven't tossed the coach by now, you may have already lost control of the game. Anything after you told him to drop it was enough.

[BlueDevilRef]

At any point a coach says something about "lost a page in the rule book" etc, it's a restriction at very least. If he's a real vocal jerk about it, send him packing.

I've tried to use "coach, I've made the call and we have discussed it. I'm done talking about it, let's move on". If he chooses to belabor his point, take action.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I've tried to use "coach, I've made the call and we have discussed it. I'm done talking about it, let's move on". If he chooses to belabor his point, take action.

This right here is where I struggle the most. I am usually sure which action is most appropriate. I think I am going to try to talk less, listen as much as I already do, and eject more.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

This right here is where I struggle the most. I am usually sure which action is most appropriate. I think I am going to try to talk less, listen as much as I already do, and eject more.

If you are talking, you aren't listening. Always listen to what they coach/player has to say. You never know, they may be right

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

At any point a coach says something about ~snip~ .......

I really don't want to believe much is THAT absolute. A loud f-bomb, sure. A loud (and for the fans' benefit) disrespecting comment, sure.

But I believe we shouldn't look for magic words or issues; treat each situation as a new and unique situation, and deal with that one situation that one time. I believe if you keep that perspective, you will rule correctly more often than looking for a) yes, that phrase is an ejection, vs. b) no, that phrase is acceptable, and NOT an ejection.

[BlueDevilRef]

I'm only talking about loud and disrespectful comments that are heard by others and meant as a way to show me up. Not looking for problems at all but not looking the other way when a statement is made like in the OP.

I rarely have trouble but am in no way shy about dealing with it when it does happen. But, to each their own.