What's the call?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Playing devil's advocate here, are we all sure there is a call to be made??

To be interference, there must be a play that is interfered with. The person involved says there was no play.

To be a blocked ball (thus dead), the ball must be handled by someone not in the game, or touch offensive equipment left on the field, or similar. The on deck batter IS permitted on the field, WAS doing an approved function, and an errant throw hits him. How is this different than an errant throw hitting a base coach; the ball remains live when that happens, UNLESS the coach fails the same charge, to not interfere??

Based on the description of the play, and if I were in agreement on the field, the ball hitting the on-deck batter likely was advantageous to the defense. I submit that I could certainly accept a "no call", and ball remaining live, as an acceptable ruling based on those judgments.

Actually, the ODB does not have approved functions. The rule (7.1.C) simply permits the ODB to leave the circle, it provides no additional protection and the ODB still cannot interfere with the defense attempting to make an out.

I agree, it doesn't seem to be INT. However, the ODB is not a player engaged in the game and meets the definition of a blocked ball.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Actually, the ODB does not have approved functions. The rule (7.1.C) simply permits the ODB to leave the circle, it provides no additional protection and the ODB still cannot interfere with the defense attempting to make an out.

I agree, it doesn't seem to be INT. However, the ODB is not a player engaged in the game and meets the definition of a blocked ball.

I read ASA 7.1-C(2) and NFHS 7-5-3-b, stating they may leave the on-deck circle to direct runners advancing to home plate, as permission to be there, and acting in the same function as a base coach. And, like a base coach, they cannot interfere.

But that permission to 1) be on the field, 2) leave the on-deck circle, and 3) perform an approved function tells me two things, at least:

A) Unlike the ASA case play referenced above, this person is somewhere they are permitted to be; not someone required to be in the dugout but affecting live ball play, and

B) How/why would we reference a blocked ball rule that applies to offensive items NOT permitted in live ball territory?

Absent a case play, or a specific rule citation, I do not believe this is a dead ball scenario; the ODB has permission to be there, doing exactly what the ODB was doing, did nothing to interfere, did not interfere, and did nothing intentional to be considered even an attempt to interfere with the opportunity to make an out (or play). Acting in an approved (base coach) function, the offense shouldn't be penalized for the misplay by the defense.

That's my opinion, anyway; and I don't see a clear rule cite that contradicts.

[josephrt1]

Hi Steve,

Looking at what you and Tru_in_Blu said, this would be a live ball. Looking at every citation in the ASA book related to on-deck batter, they only call a dead ball & runner out if actual interference with the ability to make an out. No citation calls for a blocked ball call. So let me ask you a follow up questions:.

lets say the ball hits the ODB the same way as in the original post with no play obvious at the time and the secondary runner was all the way back at the 3rd base bag. Now the ball deflects off the ODB and skips away allowing the runner to score. if the ball hadn't hit the ODB, it would have stopped at the backstop and catcher would flip to the pitcher. Maybe get the out or maybe runner doesn't attempt to come home. What would we have in this situation? It sounds like form your post that the ODB had a right to be there, did not interfere, so now we have a live ball which could lead to another run.

I'm not arguing with you, just following the thought through and i can't find a rule citation to counter you with. But i don't like the idea that an ODB can get close enough to get hit by a errant ball and not be penalized.

Thanks

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I read ASA 7.1-C(2) and NFHS 7-5-3-b, stating they may leave the on-deck circle to direct runners advancing to home plate, as permission to be there, and acting in the same function as a base coach. And, like a base coach, they cannot interfere.

Yet 8.7.O provides a specific exception from interference by a coach. No such exemptions exist for an ODB

But that permission to 1) be on the field, 2) leave the on-deck circle, and 3) perform an approved function tells me two things, at least:

A) Unlike the ASA case play referenced above, this person is somewhere they are permitted to be; not someone required to be in the dugout but affecting live ball play, and

B) How/why would we reference a blocked ball rule that applies to offensive items NOT permitted in live ball territory?

Well, that is not what the ASA rule states. A ball is blocked if it touches a person not engaged in the game. IMO, that is an active participant such as defensive player in the field, a runner, a batter-runner, a batter and the umpires. It does not include any person not required to be on in playable territory which includes coaches, ODB, bat person, ball person, bullpen occupants (if in playable territory), media, etc.

Absent a case play, or a specific rule citation I do not believe this is a dead ball scenario; the ODB has permission to be there, doing exactly what the ODB was doing, did nothing to interfere, did not interfere, and did nothing intentional to be considered even an attempt to interfere with the opportunity to make an out (or play). Acting in an approved (base coach) function, the offense shouldn't be penalized for the misplay by the defense.

That's my opinion, anyway; and I don't see a clear rule cite that contradicts.

For those not participating in the game, there are specific allowances for coaches and media personnel should the accidentally be contacted by a live ball. There are no such exception for the others I have noted. If they were considered "engaged" with the game, why is there a need for a specific rule to cover these exceptions?

And, like Steve, that is my opinion and I don't see a clear rule cite that contradicts.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, that is not what the ASA rule states. A ball is blocked if it touches a person not engaged in the game. IMO, that is an active participant such as defensive player in the field, a runner, a batter-runner, a batter and the umpires. It does not include any person not required to be on in playable territory which includes coaches, ODB, bat person, ball person, bullpen occupants (if in playable territory), media, etc.

Did this forum previously conclude [ASA] that an ODB must be present? I don't have my book handy, but doesn't 7.1 use "shall" when referring to the ODB?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Did this forum previously conclude [ASA] that an ODB must be present? I don't have my book handy, but doesn't 7.1 use "shall" when referring to the ODB?

The rule does say "shall". However, as a matter of game management, I refuse to hold up a game with a pitcher and batter that are ready because an on-deck batter isn't. And, I am frustrated whenever I see another umpire that does wait, because I think that is an absurd requirement. I'm pretty sure at some point I was directed by ASA NUS that the rule was meant to be interpreted to mean that IF there was an on-deck batter, that person must be in the on-deck circle.

I also umpire games at sites where there simply isn't a safe place for an on-deck batter to stand; should I refuse to continue unless a player puts herself at risk?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Did this forum previously conclude [ASA] that an ODB must be present? I don't have my book handy, but doesn't 7.1 use "shall" when referring to the ODB?

The book may read "shall", but it is incorrect. Should probably read "may".

It is an unenforceable rule simply because not all fields can safely accommodate such an area. And some fields simply do not have ODC, but provide an area outside the fence near the dugout and I'm certainly not going looking to see if player not of active stature is occupying a particular space