short handed rule, batting out of order

[prekowski]

A mens slowpitch softball team starts the game under shorthanded rule with 9 players with a 10th in the lineup in hopes they show. They play a few innings with the 9 players defensively and on offense, they come up to the 10th spot in the lineup, and the 10th player has not shown. So the team with 9 players put the leadoff hitter up after the 9th player in the order batted. He batted and got a hit with two outs. When the next player came to bat and received a pitch, the umpire declared that the previous player should have not have batted because the 10th player was supposed to be an automatic out. Q is the play of the leadoff hitter supposed to be nullified because it is an automatic out for the 10th batter, or is it subject to appeal play before the next pitch as batting out of order. The umpire rules that it is not up to the opposing team to appeal batting out of order, it is automatic. What is correct? Is itsubject to appeal of batting out of order prior to next pitch, or is it automatic to be ruled by the umpire?

[RKBUmp]

It's not an appeal, it's just an autautoic out for the missing batter. And it's not batting out of order, the leadoff batter was the one due up, the missing 10th spot simply should have been declared out.

[Dakota]

Ruling would be the same as for any other situation where due to an oversight play continued after the 3rd out.

[MD Longhorn]

Agree with the above.

And worse... if it WAS batting out of order, it's not the umpire's job to catch or announce it.

[CecilOne]

As #10 would have been the 3rd out, the leadoff AB is negated??

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As #10 would have been the 3rd out, the leadoff AB is negated??

Essentially yes, nothing can happen after the 3rd out. Just delete anything from the score book which occurred that inning after the missing #10 batter and the next inning #1 comes to bat.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by prekowski

A mens slowpitch softball team starts the game under shorthanded rule with 9 players with a 10th in the lineup in hopes they show.

Umpire never should have accepted the line up with more names than players. The 10th position, by rule, is left blank and is an out each time that position is due to bat

They play a few innings with the 9 players defensively and on offense, they come up to the 10th spot in the lineup, and the 10th player has not shown. So the team with 9 players put the leadoff hitter up after the 9th player in the order batted. He batted and got a hit with two outs. When the next player came to bat and received a pitch, the umpire declared that the previous player should have not have batted because the 10th player was supposed to be an automatic out. Q is the play of the leadoff hitter supposed to be nullified because it is an automatic out for the 10th batter, or is it subject to appeal play before the next pitch as batting out of order. The umpire rules that it is not up to the opposing team to appeal batting out of order, it is automatic. What is correct? Is itsubject to appeal of batting out of order prior to next pitch, or is it automatic to be ruled by the umpire?

This is easily correctable. The out is recorded and B1 leads off the next inning.

Though 10.3.C states that the correction must occur prior to the next pitch or the end of inning procedures, it may be questioned as to whether either team was placed in jeopardy by the delay. The argument could be made that since this was correctable without any harm to either team.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Umpire never should have accepted the line up with more names than players. The 10th position, by rule, is left blank and is an out each time that position is due to bat.

Do you actually count the players or do you just mean that given that the coach told you the 10th guy wasn't there?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

Do you actually count the players or do you just mean that given that the coach told you the 10th guy wasn't there?

I always count the players and in Co-rec, make sure I have the right number of each gender. I do this before the exchange of line-ups so I know what I'm looking at when I examine the card

[Linknblue]

Here's where "local rec" rules can make things easier. My area everyone can bat.....8, 9, 10, 11 & more. You can even have "listed" subs if your team is 15 players and you only want to bat 12...3 are "listed" subs and follow sub rules. Teams can also can declare we're waiting for a person to show up to be 10 player and that player is listed as 10th in the order. If he doesn't show up in time to bat the first time the team plays with 9 and no auto out. If he shows up later, he's a sub. This also works for COED. You can play with 4 ladies and 5 guys...but lady missing is an out....or you can play with 4 and 4 and no out with a male sub. You can still start with "missing" players and they are listed as 9th and 10th in the order and have to make it before their first scheduled at bat. In COED with male missing or it's NOT an "out" for the rest of the game, female missing, it's an out.........can't give advantage of more men than women unless there's the "out" penalty.......most of the time it's whatever the managers agree to before the game and we play on........we're instructed to get games played cuz that's what the pay for.......works pretty darn good I have to say....I don't even get lineups...city scorekeeper deals with lineup and manager agreements...I just facilitate and explain what they can do......

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Here's where "local rec" rules can make things easier. My area everyone can bat.....8, 9, 10, 11 & more. You can even have "listed" subs if your team is 15 players and you only want to bat 12...3 are "listed" subs and follow sub rules. Teams can also can declare we're waiting for a person to show up to be 10 player and that player is listed as 10th in the order. If he doesn't show up in time to bat the first time the team plays with 9 and no auto out. If he shows up later, he's a sub. This also works for COED. You can play with 4 ladies and 5 guys...but lady missing is an out....or you can play with 4 and 4 and no out with a male sub. You can still start with "missing" players and they are listed as 9th and 10th in the order and have to make it before their first scheduled at bat. In COED with male missing or it's NOT an "out" for the rest of the game, female missing, it's an out.........can't give advantage of more men than women unless there's the "out" penalty.......most of the time it's whatever the managers agree to before the game and we play on........we're instructed to get games played cuz that's what the pay for.......works pretty darn good I have to say....I don't even get lineups...city scorekeeper deals with lineup and manager agreements...I just facilitate and explain what they can do......

Why bother with a PU, just let them hit it out of their hand. After all, wouldn't that make it that much easier, faster and eliminate any questions on ball/strike calls?

[Linknblue]

These rules are "blessed and approved" by city recreation departments....they ain't "umpire generated rules". We just do what our assignor tells us to do. It does make our jobs much easier when teams negotiate how they want to play a given game......when it comes to lineups.....and who can and and can't play w/o penalty......they even "unofficially" approved of non-roster players being allowed to play so the games aren't forfieted....the guys want to play and they want to get games in the easiest way possible............is it sometimes like playground play? Yes, but us umpires don't care...we just call balls/strkes and outs on dem bases.....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

These rules are "blessed and approved" by city recreation departments....they ain't "umpire generated rules". We just do what our assignor tells us to do. It does make our jobs much easier when teams negotiate how they want to play a given game......when it comes to lineups.....and who can and and can't play w/o penalty......they even "unofficially" approved of non-roster players being allowed to play so the games aren't forfieted....the guys want to play and they want to get games in the easiest way possible............is it sometimes like playground play? Yes, but us umpires don't care...we just call balls/strkes and outs on dem bases.....

Nothing wrong with umpire generated rules.

Everything wrong with city rec dept blessed and approved rules. LRAMBF.

[Linknblue]

My guess is that the assignor wants the assignments and offers his advice but if the city wants to do it because the players want to do it........who'r we to argue? Some don't make sense but it is what it is for sure.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

My guess is that the assignor wants the assignments and offers his advice but if the city wants to do it because the players want to do it........who'r we to argue? Some don't make sense but it is what it is for sure.

Let me tell you why this is not a good idea. Local rules cheat the teams and do nothing but cause problems once they want to play elsewhere.

As a UIC at a 16U national, I had a coach (from OH) ask me at the manager's meeting why he cannot use 2 DPs and Flex. I simply told him that the rule book does not permit it. He told me at home, that was the standard and either no one caught it or it was permitted in championship play (which to coach told me it was). Now everyone involved in that national was the bad guy preventing this team from playing their game.

A few years back, ASA players were allowed to use any softball bat that wasn't on the ASA non-approved list whether it had an ASA certification stamp or not in the MD/DC area. After all, it was what the players wanted. Supposedly, they were repeatedly told that if they played outside of their area, the bats would have to be ASA approved. Well, sure enough some of these teams showed up at an ASA national and lost the use of many of their bats. One team ended up with just one bat for the tournament. And, of course, every bit of fault was laid at the umpires' feet as if they really had a say in the matter.

Considering the lack of intelligence among many players, local rules are made by and for fools