ASA: 10+ seconds, pitcher with hands together

[teebob21]

So this happened this weekend...working an ASA 18 Gold game with a SLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW but legal pitcher. Normally she was up to a 14 or 15 second count out of the 20 allowed.

R1 on 2B. Count irrelevant, although I think it was 1-0. Pitcher brings her hands together, then shakes off a few signs. Then, a couple more. I am nearly to 10 when the batter asks for time, and I say "No, she's on a count. Stay." Batter backs out of the box anyway. The pitcher steps back off the pitcher's plate in response. My count, had it not been interrupted, would have been to 12, maybe 13 by now.

I called a dead ball; illegal pitch, ball on the batter due to the timing violation. My U1 partner (a VERY good umpire with high level experience) questioned me if we should move the runner. I said no.

I may have applied the college rule accidentally. In ASA, do we apply the base award for an illegal pitch on a timing violation, even if the pitch is not thrown? ASA 6A-1-E.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Man!! You looked up the rule, can cite the rule, but didn't see the EFFECT??

It's an illegal pitch in ASA and NFHS, and all that includes.

[RKBUmp]

You called an illegal pitch, not a 20 second violation. What is the penalty for an illegal pitch?

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Man!! You looked up the rule, can cite the rule, but didn't see the EFFECT??

It's an illegal pitch in ASA and NFHS, and all that includes.

Yup, I done goofed. That's what I thought...2 pitches later. I should have listened more to my partner (and my gut). The only defense I can offer is that this is the first 10-second-count IP I have ever called. This seems to be a year of "firsts" for me. Cue the comments of "18 years of 1 year experience."

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by teebob21

So this happened this weekend...working an ASA 18 Gold game with a SLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW but legal pitcher. Normally she was up to a 14 or 15 second count out of the 20 allowed.

R1 on 2B. Count irrelevant, although I think it was 1-0. Pitcher brings her hands together, then shakes off a few signs. Then, a couple more. I am nearly to 10 when the batter asks for time, and I say "No, she's on a count. Stay." Batter backs out of the box anyway. The pitcher steps back off the pitcher's plate in response. My count, had it not been interrupted, would have been to 12, maybe 13 by now.

I called a dead ball; illegal pitch, ball on the batter due to the timing violation. My U1 partner (a VERY good umpire with high level experience) questioned me if we should move the runner. I said no.

I may have applied the college rule accidentally. In ASA, do we apply the base award for an illegal pitch on a timing violation, even if the pitch is not thrown? ASA 6A-1-E.

Just wondering what the response of the coach was to you calling an illegal pitch.

Also, going back to the situation. When the batter requested time, did she say it loud enough for the pitcher to hear? My argument, if I am the defensive coach, is that the batter requested time and stepped out of the box, which is an action designed to draw an illegal pitch or get the pitcher not to pitch. To call a timing violation illegal pitch on a situation like this would be an unfair act by the offense.

I do understand the situation from an umpires standpoint, but I am also trying to see this from the pitchers and defensive coaches standpoint as well.

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Just wondering what the response of the coach was to you calling an illegal pitch.

Also, going back to the situation. When the batter requested time, did she say it loud enough for the pitcher to hear? My argument, if I am the defensive coach, is that the batter requested time and stepped out of the box, which is an action designed to draw an illegal pitch or get the pitcher not to pitch. To call a timing violation illegal pitch on a situation like this would be an unfair act by the offense.

I do understand the situation from an umpires standpoint, but I am also trying to see this from the pitchers and defensive coaches standpoint as well.

Started to write the same response last night then let it go. I agree with you. Once the batter stepped out I would have considered that disruptive to the pitcher (even though non-intentional) and would have stopped my count and let everybody reset.

[jmkupka]

I don't go for the "way to take control" mantra, if it becomes a habit just because the batter doesn't like F1 using the time she is permitted.

That said:

If the batter steps out, and F1 is hands-together, we're probably playing on (if batter has established the aforementioned "habit")

If F1 stops her action due to (in my judgement) batter stepping out, I'll stop things there, and constructively inform F1 not to stop action unless I personally tell her to. No IP there.

If the "step out" occurs near the end of F1's allotted time, and we continue past, we can still have the IP.

Never had that happen, though.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by teebob21

So this happened this weekend...working an ASA 18 Gold game with a SLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW but legal pitcher. Normally she was up to a 14 or 15 second count out of the 20 allowed.

R1 on 2B. Count irrelevant, although I think it was 1-0. Pitcher brings her hands together, then shakes off a few signs. Then, a couple more. I am nearly to 10 when the batter asks for time, and I say "No, she's on a count. Stay." Batter backs out of the box anyway. The pitcher steps back off the pitcher's plate in response. My count, had it not been interrupted, would have been to 12, maybe 13 by now.

I called a dead ball; illegal pitch, ball on the batter due to the timing violation. My U1 partner (a VERY good umpire with high level experience) questioned me if we should move the runner. I said no.

I may have applied the college rule accidentally. In ASA, do we apply the base award for an illegal pitch on a timing violation, even if the pitch is not thrown? ASA 6A-1-E.

I do not do ASA ball so please allow me some questions for clarification:

Firstly: I know she may take as many signals as she wants once her hands are together - But did she alos take (or simulate taking) PRIOR to hands coming together. Or is that not an ASA requirement?

Secondly: Why would you call a violation (illegal pitch or otherwise) if she is only 12-13 seconds into a 20 second count?
Thanks in advance.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by robbie

I do not do ASA ball so please allow me some questions for clarification:

Firstly: I know she may take as many signals as she wants once her hands are together - But did she alos take (or simulate taking) PRIOR to hands coming together. Or is that not an ASA requirement?

Secondly: Why would you call a violation (illegal pitch or otherwise) if she is only 12-13 seconds into a 20 second count?
Thanks in advance.

ASA:
First question: yes, pause/simulation required before bringing the hands together.

Second question: hands together min 1 sec, max 10 sec.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by robbie

Secondly: Why would you call a violation (illegal pitch or otherwise) if she is only 12-13 seconds into a 20 second count?
Thanks in advance.

I can see where this was written poorly. The pitcher normally was taking nearly 15 second to deliver the pitch. The legal maximum is 20, and she was doing everything legally up to the pitch described.

As to the second part, ASA/NFHS have a ten-second maximum on a pitcher with her hands together (illegal pitch). NCAA limits this to 5 seconds, and the penalty is different (only a ball on batter).

[IRISHMAFIA]

I would have granted the batter time. Obviously she wasn't prepared to bat.

I would not consider the batter moving out of the BB prior to the pitcher making a motion to deliver a pitch an attempt to draw an IP. Even if it were, it is a "no pitch" and a warning given to the offending team. The second time is an ejection and still a "no pitch".

[MD Longhorn]

I'm still wondering how we got to 12 or 13 ... when the violation occurred at 10.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I'm still wondering how we got to 12 or 13 ... when the violation occurred at 10.

I was talking to the batter, telling her to stay and that I had not granted time.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I was talking to the batter, telling her to stay and that I had not granted time.

But you don't have any of these other problems is you simply call the IP at 10, when it occurred. At the point you were talking to the batter, it really didn't matter if the batter backed out or got back in... the pitch was over.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

But you don't have any of these other problems is you simply call the IP at 10, when it occurred. At the point you were talking to the batter, it really didn't matter if the batter backed out or got back in... the pitch was over.

I can see both points of view, here. It seems to me that it is a more realistic explanation that the count didn't end because you refused to grant "time" (which you have every right to do), than to explain that the count expired with the batter now out of the batter's box.

But your point is also valid; call it when it expires.