sub

[benbret]

NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

[DaveASA/FED]

I would call that preventitive umpiring. If you can keep something against the rules from happening then do it!! JMO

[RKBUmp]

While in NFHS it is essentially no penalty, in other rule sets there are penalties for an unreported sub. I do not consider it to be preventive umpiring to bring it to the team or coaches attention. Yes, in FED it is basically nothing, but in most other rule sets there are penalties the opposing team could use to their advantage on both offense and defense. If you bring it to the offending teams attention you are removing the other teams ability to appeal that infraction. As a general rule I treat all rule sets the same and it is the offended teams responsibility to appeal it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by benbret

NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

Not illegal, just unreported.
Fairly common to handle an unreported that way, but don't think it is in the rules anywhere.

Penalty if occurs is restriction to the bench along with the head coach.
Sorry, team warning and restricted on next offense.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not illegal, just unreported.
Fairly common to handle an unreported that way, but don't think it is in the rules anywhere.

Penalty if occurs is restriction to the bench along with the head coach.
Sorry, team warning and restricted on next offense.

Cecil, can you re-clarify the penalty for me? Is the coach restricted on the first offense or the second? The rule and its effects are written in a way that can be interpreted differently by people.

[RKBUmp]

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

First offense is team warning. Second offense is player and coach restricted to dugout.

What he said.

[Andy]

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Andy

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

Concur with everything Andy said.

I had a game a few years ago in which F3 was removed on offense (on the bases); then ran out to play defense once the inning was over. The visiting coach, who at the time was chair of the rules committee, stared at me until the opposing coach re-entered the player. He was making sure I didn't take away his play.
Funny enough, he was very close to not reporting a re-entry a few inning later.

I had a (D1) coach tell me it was my job to remind him to re-enter his players. Maybe I should listen to him, that coach is a lawyer.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I would not consider calling this to the offending team's attention "preventive umpiring"

Preventive umpiring is not allowing them to do something illegal when they ask you to do it...ie, an illegal sub or illegal Courtesy Runner.

In the OP, it is the offensive teams responsibility to re-enter the DP when she comes up to bat. As mentioned, there is essentially no penalty in NFHS for a first offense, but their is for a second offense and this could be used by the opponent to their advantage.

I had an unreported sub issue in a college game this last season....Coach entered a new pitcher at the start of an inning, but never reported her. I knew it, but didn't say anything and waited for the opposing coach to appeal it as there is a penalty in NCAA rules for an unreported sub. Opposing coach waited a couple of innings until it was to her advantage to appeal the unreported sub....extended an inning and scored a couple of runs.

I agree, for NCAA, EXCEPT ...

NFHS doesn't require the opposing team to notify the umpire of an unreported player, or other violations covered by rule 3-6. The key phrase has always been "when noticed", not when appealed; and it isn't a defined appeal!!. And the offense has every opportunity to meet the requirement to report until the player entered the batter's box.

This specific instance, "when noticed" by the plate umpire AFTER she entered the batter's box was a violation, and should have included the warning under 3-6-7 Penalty.

[BlueDevilRef]

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

For bat out of order, it is upon completion of at bat. But here, as soon as you have to ask, imho, she is unreported and you issue warning. As stated, not a big deal in NFHS.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

In the batter box.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

At what point do you consider her to be reentering the game?

For bat out of order, it is upon completion of at bat. But here, as soon as you have to ask, imho, she is unreported and you issue warning. As stated, not a big deal in NFHS.

3-3-3-d

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by benbret

NFHS girls varsity fast pitch. I am plate umpire 2nd inning visiting team DP gets a base hit single. Flex runs for the DP so the DP has left the game. 4th inning DP comes to bat but has not report back in. I remembered her. I ask her if she was re entering the game. She she that she was. Home coach was very upset that I had ask her. She though I should have waited and let them report that she was illegal. I explained to the coach that all she would have been was an unreported sub and there was no penalty. Should I have waited and let the home team tell me that she was an unreported sub or was I within my rights to correct it when I noticed that she was the batter?

When did you notice her? Was it before she entered the batters box and the ball was declared live? If so, that is preventative umpiring, and yes the coach has the right to be upset, but you did what you felt was right for the game.

If you noticed her and asked her before she entered the batters box and the ball was declared live (3-3-3-d and 3-3-3-e) the team has not committed an unreported substitution violation because at the point the unreported substitute had not yet entered the game. If it was after she was in the box and the ball was declared live, then she has entered the game unreported and a team warning must be issued.

I would say this, I generally will not use preventative umpiring on things like this. It is up to the players and coaches to know the rules about substitutions and lineups. I expect the coach, as the adult, to follow the rules.

I will use preventative umpiring in situations where a rule isn't yet broken, but could be if the action continues.

Examples of this include seeing a player warming up with jewelry on. I will issue a reminder before the game starts (to both teams) to prevent an issue like this from happening. If I see a pitcher come out with a glove on her pitching hand, I will issue a reminder to take it off, rather than wait until it becomes illegal.

Another is a "thrown" bat. If a batter swings and tosses the bat to an area where it isn't an issue, but it was clearly a thrown bat, I generally won't issue a warning, but I will remind the coach. (If it is thrown and hits me or the catcher, it is a team warning immediately).

Believe it or not, I do try to avoid as many problems as I can.

Now here is one for you guys. You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You have two outs and a running is caught stealing for the third out (during an at bat). Do you do anything in regards to the batter at bat. Personally I use preventative umpiring here as well. I will make sure everyone is on the same page as to who the leadoff batter is the next inning (the same girl that was in the box when the caught stealing occurred). If we then have an out of order issue, there is no confusion as to who should have been up.

At 10U, I'll tell the player they get to bat first next inning. I will not go to "everyone" to make sure they are on the same page.

At 12U and up, or HS, not only SHOULD they know... but they WILL know - I've yet to have BOO occur in a game like this.