Do you ever call this?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by archer
Then you risk the pitcher getting hurt because of the canyon in front of the rubber. Most girls push off in front of the hole to avoid an injury.

Hogwash. The pitcher actually risks greater injury by pushing off from the bottom of the hole instead of just staying on the plate to push off.

Most fields have a small divot in front of the plate, not a deep hole, and I see this positioning of the foot on all kinds of fields. It is obviously a coached and practiced foot positioning, so somebody somewhere thinks this is a better way to handle the foot mechanics (i.e. gain an advantage).

As I said above, I've never called a pitcher on it, but it is clearly illegal.

[MD Longhorn]

It is a little ironic, but I agree with you on football. I've been doing football for 2 years - so I'm much less experienced there, but you are right as far as your opinions of how veterans call the game. There is, for some reason, a lot more leniency on the football field regarding calling penalties that don't affect the play. Perhaps it is because football is a constant motion sport, and if one were to call it by the book, on every play at every point on the field, there would likely be a penalty on every single play.

However, to the point that we should let things go in baseball or softball, I tend to disagree. I'll have to think a lot more about WHY I disagree, but initial thoughts are thus:

The rules in baseball are nearly all there for specific reasons. The "no harm, no foul" principle doesn't apply because nearly every "foul" in baseball is actually part of the play. If there is truly no advantage in pitching from 3 inches in front of the rubber, then you have to ask yourself why she does it. If there is some disadvantage to her to do it correctly, then obviously there IS an advantage to her doing it wrong. If there's no disadvantage, then there is simply no reason not to do it right.

Think about the lookback rule. A girl is strolling 1 step off the bag, and a pitcher gets the ball in the circle. The BR takes another slow step off the bag, stops, and then returns to 1st. No harm, right. But sorry folks - she's out. So the no harm-no foul principle clearly doesn't hold water there - so why be lax elsewhere.

The only instance where I can see leniency on a rule is when safety is involved (like the canyons in front of the rubber mentioned above).

[archer]

I agree dakota. Pushing of from the bottom of the hole will get a kid hurt. That is why they land on the other side of the divot.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by archer
I agree dakota. Pushing of from the bottom of the hole will get a kid hurt. That is why they land on the other side of the divot.

I wonder if maybe we are miscommunicating here. I'm not talking about the drag above a hole & landing on the other side.

Visualize no hole at all. When you push off with the ball of your foot, your heel naturally lifts. If you start with the heel only on the front of the plate, the push off with the ball of the foot will be the lenght of the foot in front of the plate & in the dirt. The point of impetus, therefore, will not be in contact with the plate, but will be several inches in front of the plate in the dirt.

That is what I was asking about. Not the drag in air above a hole.

[Roger Greene]

Well, I'm gonna give you my opinion.

The action originally described is not a violation IMO.

The rule does not require the whole foot to be on the pitcher's plate at the start of the pitch. If F1 wishes to only have her heel on top of the plate at the start of the pitch, then any natural motion on the pitch will cause her to lose contact with the plate as she takes the required step. Matter of fact the diagrams illustrating legal pitching positions in the Fed book spicifically show this.

Just use a little common sense and consider the whole rule, not fragments. This is not pushing off from some other place than the pitching plate.

Roger Greene

[Little Jimmy]

It's interesting that this topic came up. I was doing a game on Sunday where this exact thing happened. Pitcher sets up with pivot heel on top of the front part of the plate. Her forward motion always rocked her foot into the hole 3-4 inches in front of the rubber. She actually pushed from the hole.
I didn't call it because I honestly was confused. But after reading Roger Greenes' post I have to agree with him. Fed book shows an example of a legal pitch doing the same thing. I'm assuming they don't expect the girl to push off with her heal only.

[bluejay]

Roger Green is correct. This is a legal delivery. To call it illegal would be nit-picking at best.
May I suggest that a warning should never be given if a pitcher is illigal. Make the illigal pitch call and that is warning enough. A warning is not fair to the other team to basically ignore the infraction. If it is illigal, call it and if not, ignore it

[archer]

Voices of reasoning..

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

I wonder if maybe we are miscommunicating here. I'm not talking about the drag above a hole & landing on the other side.

Visualize no hole at all. When you push off with the ball of your foot, your heel naturally lifts. If you start with the heel only on the front of the plate, the push off with the ball of the foot will be the lenght of the foot in front of the plate & in the dirt. The point of impetus, therefore, will not be in contact with the plate, but will be several inches in front of the plate in the dirt.

That is what I was asking about. Not the drag in air above a hole.

Tom,

A lot of lurkers appeared on this one. I stayed out of this one because I thought it got off track and wasn't sure which way it was going to go, especially when I started reading about football and baseball on this board.

I think you are referring to the same thing which happens in SP when the pitcher raises the heel during the delivery, yet the remainder of the foot never moves off the set position.

It seems to me that if this can be absolutely determined to be prior to the delivery, it is illegal. If it is a motion that occurs so quickly that you just aren't sure which came first, you have a legal pitch.

And I mean the umpire must SEE this, not just assume it happened, to make this call.

[Roger Greene]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[A lot of lurkers appeared on this one.
[/B]

Oh no! Mike has demoted me to a "lurker"!

Roger Greene

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I think you are referring to the same thing which happens in SP when the pitcher raises the heel during the delivery, yet the remainder of the foot never moves off the set position.

It seems to me that if this can be absolutely determined to be prior to the delivery, it is illegal. If it is a motion that occurs so quickly that you just aren't sure which came first, you have a legal pitch.

And I mean the umpire must SEE this, not just assume it happened, to make this call.

I agree with this philosophically - like an out - only call it if you see it. The IP call can have a significant penalty with runner on base, and especially with a runner on third, so the umpire should never guess at an IP call.

I also agree with the "don't warn - just call it" in Championship play, at least. However, in lower level play with younger kids, I will almost always inform the coach of technical violations between innings so the pitcher can work on them. (Actual, intentional violations are another matter, and while not perfect at reading intent, I can tell the difference in many cases.) I never "warn" about an IP (even though I threatened to earlier). I either inform the coach so he can work on it, or I call it.

However, I firmly disagree with Roger and those who agree with his view that this is a legal pitch. A drawing of legal foot positioning at the start of the pitch in the NFHS book does not supercede the clear ASA Rule 6, bolstered by the definition of a crow hop in Rule 1, that the point of impetus and push off must be the pitching plate and nowhere else. Positioning of the foot can be legal or illegal; legal foot positioning does not mean everything after that is by definition legal.

OTOH, I am back to the significant penalty that the IP call can result in and the relatively minor violation this is.

OTOH, it is clearly coached in most cases, and therefore could just as easily be coached to be legal. Move your foot back a bit, pitcher, and then you'll push off from the plate. Or, slide your foot sideways to push off instead of rock forward. Whatever... just push off from the plate.

It bugs me every time I've seen it, and it bugs me more that I don't call it, since I have this nagging feeling that I should call it but don't just because I don't want the hassle.

There. True confessions.

It bugs me enough I was just wondering what others did.

[Dukat]

Originally posted by Dakota

It bugs me every time I've seen it, and it bugs me more that I don't call it, since I have this nagging feeling that I should call it but don't just because I don't want the hassle.

There. True confessions.

It bugs me enough I was just wondering what others did.

But now when you start calling it you are going to get "But you have never called it before so why start now?" and have to put up with that headache. I'm not disagreeing that it shouldn't be called as I feel it should but you know you will be hearing that statement when you start.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Dukat
But now when you start calling it you are going to get "But you have never called it before so why start now?" and have to put up with that headache. I'm not disagreeing that it shouldn't be called as I feel it should but you know you will be hearing that statement when you start.

Yeppers (2¢ to Joel), right you are.

[Larry Wolfe]

In answer to the question in the first post, as long as the pivot foot is legal on the start of the pitch where is there anything to call? I do not call a lift of the heel providing the foot does not slide forward or it is a turn only to clear cleats and the heel is not turned off the rubber. I do however call everytime when the first motion of the pitch is with the pivot foot and it is slid forward 3 or 4 inches before the stride foot is moved.

IMO, to not call something because no perceived advantage is gained is a slippery slope, except maybe for safety when both teams are given the same tolerance.

A few years ago a girl that is now playing D-1 would start with her heel in contact, her fist motion was to slide her pivot foot forward several inches, I would call her, she would smile and not move it the rest of the game. IMO she knew exactly what she was doing and mayby wasn't called all the time. But because the ball of her foot was already forward, I wanted here in contact as required by the rules when the pitch started. (ASA says in contact with and Federation says on top of.)

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by archer
3 or 4 inches? Please! 12 to 24 inches? Yes call it. What advantage is gained with 3 to 4 inches?

If you can show me where it says in the rule book to only call a pitching violation if the pitcher is gaining an advantage, then I will be glad to call it your way. However, until such wording is added, I must call it the way the rule book states, which in the case provided is a violation.

...or a very inexperienced umpire who thinks the rule book is to be adhered to strickly.

Ummm...I am a very experienced umpire, though not as much so as many on this board, and I will tell you that the rule book should be strictly adhered to. That is what we, as umpires, are taking your money for. To enforce the rules as they are written, not just the ones that you or I feel should be enforced. One cannot pick and choose which rules to enforce, and having coached FP for 10 years myself, I wouldn't have wanted an umpire who did enforce the rules on a selective basis. It surprises me that you would want to shortchange your girls that way.

You should know that 99% of the people who yell at you from the stands never played a sport and more than likely played in the band. Ill even bet they have some "one time at band camp" stories to tell.

Inflammatory comments such as this serve no purpose, other than to give a glimpse into the nature of your character. For the record, I was in band in both middle school and high school, but I also played baseball, basketball, and tennis. I am 6'2", 225 lbs and in peak health. Want to listen to my "band camp" stories????

The bottom line is, ask yourself this one question. When you pay your fees and sign up for a tournament, do you want to know that your money has gone to hire officials who will ajudicate your games according to the book, or would you prefer officials who will only apply some of the rules some of the time?! Remember, they may pick and choose the ones that you don't want enforced. That is the risk you run when you "desire" substandard officials.



[Edited by Skahtboi on Sep 18th, 2003 at 10:49 AM]