base umpire positioning

[CecilOne]

Are Irish's comments the consensus about my OP question; regarding teaching and evaluation?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Disagree. The entire game is based on variables and the umpire must adjust to the fielders, not the other way around. And for the reasons posted earlier, I would always keep the umpire near a fielder when possible.

As a batter, I loved it when the umpire would position him/herself in a hole. I would use that umpire as a target and try to put the ball right in his/her face and hope s/he would get out of the way as I knew that would be a base hit.

The bases are constant. That makes it easier to give a description. Then people also don't take this so literally.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The bases are constant. That makes it easier to give a description. Then people also don't take this so literally.

However, the location & actions of the runners & fielders and direction & progress of a batted ball are not and sometimes change by the play or by the second.

[CecilOne]

First scrimmage, first inning, both F4 and F6 being literal about "middle infielders".
Both within 10-15 from HP-2nd line and 10 - 15 feet back from base line.
From behind them, no way to reasonably cover a pick at 1st or a steal at 3rd.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

First scrimmage, first inning, both F4 and F6 being literal about "middle infielders".
Both within 10-15 from HP-2nd line and 10 - 15 feet back from base line.
From behind them, no way to reasonably cover a pick at 1st or a steal at 3rd.

Which would be the more important call, the one at 3rd or the one at 1st?

Considering your concerns, assuming runners @ 1B & 2B. I would most likely suggest a position to the right of F6 and call what you can see. That DOESN'T mean you call R2 out because you didn't see the runner touch the base before the tag, but only if you see a tag and the runner definitely not in contact with the base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Which would be the more important call, the one at 3rd or the one at 1st?

Considering your concerns, assuming runners @ 1B & 2B. I would most likely suggest a position to the right of F6 and call what you can see.
That DOESN'T mean you call R2 out because you didn't see the runner touch the base before the tag, but only if you see a tag and the runner definitely not in contact with the base.

Obviously the one at 3rd, but I was only referring to a pick at 1st when in B.

Not sure why you used that example. I did call a runner safe on a pick at 1st from position C, too far away and straight-lined by the runner, as you imply, which was on Facebook as an out that night. I still think I called what I should from that position.

My point is the insistence of many on using the fielder as a guide and a shield does not always work and in my opinion is the wrong approach to begin with.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Obviously the one at 3rd, but I was only referring to a pick at 1st when in B.

Not sure why you used that example. I did call a runner safe on a pick at 1st from position C, too far away and straight-lined by the runner, as you imply, which was on Facebook as an out that night. I still think I called what I should from that position.

My point is the insistence of many on using the fielder as a guide and a shield does not always work and in my opinion is the wrong approach to begin with.

It is a preferred position as a matter of avoiding a possible INT call or being blocked. Like just about every other mechanic, it is not absolute. Most UIC/evaluators are not going to worry about an adjustment as long as it does not become the routine or is executed when unnecessary.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Using, at a starting point, that NFHS bases its mechanics on ASA mechanics, our (MTD, Jr., and me) local ASA UIC described how to set up in the B and C positions.

B Position (Runner on 1B): Draw a line that is parallel to the First Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the First Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has as good view of F1's feet and the Runner on 1B. He calls this position the B1 Position.


C Position (Runner on 2B or Runners on 1B and 2B): Draw a line that is parallel to the Third Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the Second Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has a good view of F1's feet and the Runner(s). He calls this position the C2 Position.


C Position (Runner on 3B, Runners on 2B and 3B, or Runners on 1B, 2B, and 3B): Draw a line that is parallel to the Third Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the Third Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has a good view of F1's feet and the Runner(s). He calls this position the C3 Position.

Mark, Jr., and I use it for NFHS, NCAA, ASA, and even for USSSA fast pitch games.

Only once have a I had a partner have a problem with me being in the C3 position and it was in a JV game. The first time I was in the C3 he frantically pointed for me to go move toward 2B. After the half inning was over, he came out and told me that I had to get into correct position. I tried to explain to him why I was in the C3 and he just wouldn't buy it and for the rest of the game would give me a look of disgust whenever I was in the C3.

Mark, Jr., has never been questioned about it in any of his college games and naturally he used it in the two ASA Nationals he umpired last Summer.

MTD, Sr.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Using, at a starting point, that NFHS bases its mechanics on ASA mechanics, our (MTD, Jr., and me) local ASA UIC described how to set up in the B and C positions.

B Position (Runner on 1B): Draw a line that is parallel to the First Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the First Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has as good view of F1's feet and the Runner on 1B. He calls this position the B1 Position.


C Position (Runner on 2B or Runners on 1B and 2B): Draw a line that is parallel to the Third Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the Second Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has a good view of F1's feet and the Runner(s). He calls this position the C2 Position.


C Position (Runner on 3B, Runners on 2B and 3B, or Runners on 1B, 2B, and 3B): Draw a line that is parallel to the Third Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the Third Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has a good view of F1's feet and the Runner(s). He calls this position the C3 Position.

Mark, Jr., and I use it for NFHS, NCAA, ASA, and even for USSSA fast pitch games.

Only once have a I had a partner have a problem with me being in the C3 position and it was in a JV game. The first time I was in the C3 he frantically pointed for me to go move toward 2B. After the half inning was over, he came out and told me that I had to get into correct position. I tried to explain to him why I was in the C3 and he just wouldn't buy it and for the rest of the game would give me a look of disgust whenever I was in the C3.

Mark, Jr., has never been questioned about it in any of his college games and naturally he used it in the two ASA Nationals he umpired last Summer.

MTD, Sr.

I'm curious enough to visualize these, as I probably have bases tomorrow.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I'm curious enough to visualize these, as I probably have bases tomorrow.

I drew this up for you all since I was just talking about pre-pitch positioning earlier this week with a partner. Also, I work basically the same mechanics as described, although I've never called them B1/C2/C3. Depth here is dictated by the fielders, assuming they are not insanely deep. When the infield plays in, I will come as close as 2 steps from the 2B-3B baseline in C. The advantages are an instant 90 for a play at 2B, and the ability to get deep in the inside for a play on the BR at 1B. I give up some angle on force outs at 3B, but can easily drop step to regain depth and angle.

Depending on the game situation and likelihood of a pickoff at 3B, I deviate from MTD's suggestion with a runner on 3B only when there are two outs, and move back to C2. The most likely play in the infield is at 1B, and I feel like this gives me the extra step to get closer and more credible. I might also shade that way in a first-and-third situation when I believe it is likely the defense will try to defend the steal at 2B or the offense is likely to do something silly to try to score the run.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Excellent visual, TeeBob.

Consider it stolen!

[Andy]

I believe that that the starting positions that are detailed in the various umpire manuals that are based on the the positions of the fielders assume that the second baseman and shortstop are playing in a "normal" position. In my experience, this is becoming less and less common.

I have been advocating selecting a spot somewhere between half and two-thirds of the way to the next base as a starting position, then adjusting from there as necessary. For me, personally, I have found that this gives me plenty of time to react to a steal and get to a good position to rule on the play. I'm also able to take a couple of strides to get a decent angle on a pick off play, with the exception of the pick off at first from the C position in two umpire mechanics.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I drew this up for you all since I was just talking about pre-pitch positioning earlier this week with a partner. Also, I work basically the same mechanics as described, although I've never called them B1/C2/C3. Depth here is dictated by the fielders, assuming they are not insanely deep. When the infield plays in, I will come as close as 2 steps from the 2B-3B baseline in C. The advantages are an instant 90 for a play at 2B, and the ability to get deep in the inside for a play on the BR at 1B. I give up some angle on force outs at 3B, but can easily drop step to regain depth and angle.

Depending on the game situation and likelihood of a pickoff at 3B, I deviate from MTD's suggestion with a runner on 3B only when there are two outs, and move back to C2. The most likely play in the infield is at 1B, and I feel like this gives me the extra step to get closer and more credible. I might also shade that way in a first-and-third situation when I believe it is likely the defense will try to defend the steal at 2B or the offense is likely to do something silly to try to score the run.

Great illustration. I was thinking more of how everything looks to me in those positions. As I said, today's game.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

I believe that that the starting positions that are detailed in the various umpire manuals that are based on the the positions of the fielders assume that the second baseman and shortstop are playing in a "normal" position. In my experience, this is becoming less and less common.

I have been advocating selecting a spot somewhere between half and two-thirds of the way to the next base as a starting position, then adjusting from there as necessary. For me, personally, I have found that this gives me plenty of time to react to a steal and get to a good position to rule on the play. I'm also able to take a couple of strides to get a decent angle on a pick off play, with the exception of the pick off at first from the C position in two umpire mechanics.

And I have been pushing half way between bases, 10-12 feet back from baseline; then adjust to be out of the way.

[Umpire@1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Using, at a starting point, that NFHS bases its mechanics on ASA mechanics, our (MTD, Jr., and me) local ASA UIC described how to set up in the B and C positions.

B Position (Runner on 1B): Draw a line that is parallel to the First Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the First Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has as good view of F1's feet and the Runner on 1B. He calls this position the B1 Position.


C Position (Runner on 2B or Runners on 1B and 2B): Draw a line that is parallel to the Third Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the Second Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has a good view of F1's feet and the Runner(s). He calls this position the C2 Position.


C Position (Runner on 3B, Runners on 2B and 3B, or Runners on 1B, 2B, and 3B): Draw a line that is parallel to the Third Base Foul Line such that it is tangent to the Pitcher's Circle on the Third Base side of the Circle. The BU should set up on this line such that he/she has a good view of F1's feet and the Runner(s). He calls this position the C3 Position.

Mark, Jr., and I use it for NFHS, NCAA, ASA, and even for USSSA fast pitch games.

Only once have a I had a partner have a problem with me being in the C3 position and it was in a JV game. The first time I was in the C3 he frantically pointed for me to go move toward 2B. After the half inning was over, he came out and told me that I had to get into correct position. I tried to explain to him why I was in the C3 and he just wouldn't buy it and for the rest of the game would give me a look of disgust whenever I was in the C3.

Mark, Jr., has never been questioned about it in any of his college games and naturally he used it in the two ASA Nationals he umpired last Summer.

MTD, Sr.

For years this was taught by the powers to be in ASA. I can remember being taught this at one of our state clinic where an ASA territory UIC was the clinician also. It is a very good teaching tool. I still use it today. But now they teach us to be off the left shoulder or right shoulder depending on which position you are in. But these are very good starting points.