Question about Summer tournament game fees.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Here in NW Ohio, rain has played havoc with Summer tournaments.

Mark, Jr., and I umpired in three tournaments where the entire day was canceled because of the weather after the first game of the day had started.

In the first two tournaments, all of the umpires were paid a full game fee for the game that was started, that resulted in 14 umpires being paid in one tournament and 20 umpires in another tournament. These two tournaments were not in the Toledo area.

The third tournament was in the Toledo area and the TD refused to pay the umpires (32 umpires including Mark) and I). When Mark and I told the TD that this was not acceptable, the other 30 umpires shouted us down saying that they would gladly not accept any money for the rained out games that had started. I am preparing an email to our assigner because not being paid for a game that has already started is flat out wrong.

I would like to know how different areas of the country handle this sort of nonsense. Thanks.

MTD, Sr.

[Dakota]

We get paid if the game has started.

[AtlUmpSteve]

In my opinion, anything less than a single game fee for umpires that

1) Accepted the assignments, making them unavailable for anything else,
2) traveled to the game site at their own expense, and
3) started a game at the direction of the tournament

is unacceptable and inappropriate. Without any additional circumstances being known; if it were a benefit or for charity, for example.

As an umpire assignor/coordinator, I would refuse to send that TD any further umpires, and counsel my umpire staff to avoid any other effort. If part of a major sanction, I would also pursue through that State Commissioner/Director and State UIC; if they support the nonpayment, then I would no longer support that sanction.

[Insane Blue]

In So Cal we get paid for starting a game. Some TD will pay every umpire a game fee that shows if the tournament gets cancelled after we show up.

[CecilOne]

A frequently ignored fact about sports officiating is that what the official does during a game is only part of the responsibility and effort. Even though it is the most visible part, it is far from being all that is needed. The time commitment, training, meetings, clinics, uniforms, equipment, study, tests, planning, communication, and travel are substantial in themselves and are essential to good officiating.

Two kinds of situations are constant reminders of how this is ignored:

One is the view and complaint of non-officials that we only care about the money and are always trying to shorten the game, even when we suspend a game for the players' safety or use speed-up rules at the leagues' direction.

Another is the practice by schools and others to refuse to pay the fee for a game when it was their mistake that led to officials being present but no game, or the officials appearing at the wrong time or place. If someone cancels a game or moves it to another site without telling the officials, the officials usually appear, spend time trying to find out what happened, travel extra distance, etc. Because this, along with our preparations, fulfills the agreed to responsibility to be at a site ready to officiate at the specified time; the game management must compensate the officials.

It's the principal and the recognition of what really goes into officiating that matters, as we all can survive without a few fees. Year after year, officials are disrespectfully cheated out of fair compensation for fulfilling these implied contracts; which in turn reduces their incentive to officiate well.

We are having a problem with HS games when we are already there and the game is cancelled (not started). I think any time we are even on the way, some compensation is needed.

[Andy]

If I start a game that has to be suspended or cancelled because of weather I expect to be paid for that game. A full game fee, unless otherwise notified prior to the game starting. I have never not been paid in this circumstance.

To add to what Cecil said...too many tournament organizers seem to regard umpires as an afterthought...."Oh, yeah...I guess we need umpires for these games." and try to scrimp and save as much as possible with lower game fees, not providing water, not paying some travel expenses, etc.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Here in NW Ohio, rain has played havoc with Summer tournaments.

Mark, Jr., and I umpired in three tournaments where the entire day was canceled because of the weather after the first game of the day had started.

In the first two tournaments, all of the umpires were paid a full game fee for the game that was started, that resulted in 14 umpires being paid in one tournament and 20 umpires in another tournament. These two tournaments were not in the Toledo area.

The third tournament was in the Toledo area and the TD refused to pay the umpires (32 umpires including Mark) and I). When Mark and I told the TD that this was not acceptable, the other 30 umpires shouted us down saying that they would gladly not accept any money for the rained out games that had started. I am preparing an email to our assigner because not being paid for a game that has already started is flat out wrong.

I would like to know how different areas of the country handle this sort of nonsense. Thanks.

MTD, Sr.

There is something else going on here. If all 30 of the umpires agreed to it, and you two were the only ones on the other side of the coin, something else is coming into play here. To be clear "something else" is either politics, personalities, or close ties with the TD....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

There is something else going on here. If all 30 of the umpires agreed to it, and you two were the only ones on the other side of the coin, something else is coming into play here. To be clear "something else" is either politics, personalities, or close ties with the TD....

Or a group kissing up for future assignments.

Nothing less than a full game fee is acceptable, IMO.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Our rule for leagues/tournaments around here has always been 'one pitch' - one pitch and we get paid a full fee. Of course, we tell our people not to abuse it. I remember only one time in 25 years, were the field was in horrible shape, the league wanted my partner and me to start it, and it started POURING again in the top of the 1st. Oh well...

In HS, our contract is very specific: any cancellation when we have shown up, and the game isn't played, and we get a $25 travel fee. Actually had a jr high softball game where there was a scheduling screw up, and the visitors never showed....and got the FULL game fee.

And if the contest starts late 30 minutes, we get a $25 late fee. I also work girls volleyball in the fall, and they started a policy to save travel expenses where the jr high teams play each other once, and then play a double match. We get a NICE $130 fee for that. So last fall, my partner banged in at the last moment one time, AND the visiting team showed up about 20 minutes late, so by the time they properly warmed up, it was late fee time! (working alone is an additional 1/2 fee)

This is one of the advantages of having a semi-independent assignor, and having all of the fees and administration done by contractual rules. It takes a while longer to get paid - but we get PAID -everything that is due us.

And in ASA, no assigning gets done without money up front! This most likely costs us a league or two, but we never get screwed either!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

In my opinion, anything less than a single game fee for umpires that

1) Accepted the assignments, making them unavailable for anything else,
2) traveled to the game site at their own expense, and
3) started a game at the direction of the tournament

is unacceptable and inappropriate. Without any additional circumstances being known; if it were a benefit or for charity, for example.

As an umpire assignor/coordinator, I would refuse to send that TD any further umpires, and counsel my umpire staff to avoid any other effort. If part of a major sanction, I would also pursue through that State Commissioner/Director and State UIC; if they support the nonpayment, then I would no longer support that sanction.

Who would pay for that?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Who would pay for that?

Mike, I'm not saying the Director/Commissioner or the State UIC would pay it; I know better.

I'm saying they need to push/urge/force the TD in their sanction to pay it; or risk getting no support or umpires going forward. The umpires rarely think "I won't work for 'TD Frank Smith' ever again"; they mostly think "I will never work xSA again".

And Mike, if you sent me; I expect either 1) your support, 2) your explanation, or 3) your boycott of that TD. I know that's what my people expect from me; and if they don't buy my explanation, they expect me to make it good, or risk they won't work for me again.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Mike, I'm not saying the Director/Commissioner or the State UIC would pay it; I know better.

I'm saying they need to push/urge/force the TD in their sanction to pay it; or risk getting no support or umpires going forward. The umpires rarely think "I won't work for 'TD Frank Smith' ever again"; they mostly think "I will never work xSA again".

And Mike, if you sent me; I expect either 1) your support, 2) your explanation, or 3) your boycott of that TD. I know that's what my people expect from me; and if they don't buy my explanation, they expect me to make it good, or risk they won't work for me again.

My question remains, who pays for it? It isn't like anyone can control the weather. And while it is done some places, it isn't fair to keep the teams' money if they do not play

[Scooby]

On the other side of the coin, I have never heard of a TD giving money back to the teams for games that were rained out.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

My question remains, who pays for it? It isn't like anyone can control the weather. And while it is done some places, it isn't fair to keep the teams' money if they do not play

I believe it would be unusual for the teams to be refunded 100% of their money even if no games are played. There are always fixed costs (park reservation / rental, for example). Beyond that, if ANY games are played, the amount refunded decreases rapidly, regardless of the game "guarantee." The TD is obligated to put together the terms and conditions on his refund policy to cover situations as in the OP.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I believe it would be unusual for the teams to be refunded 100% of their money even if no games are played. There are always fixed costs (park reservation / rental, for example). Beyond that, if ANY games are played, the amount refunded decreases rapidly, regardless of the game "guarantee." The TD is obligated to put together the terms and conditions on his refund policy to cover situations as in the OP.

So the teams pay the cost to which someone else has committed.

Answer me this If you pre-order an item, but the item is never produced, do you expect to only get a partial refund because the company/organization had expenses leading up to that point?