Hand Ball

[drh898]

Question for you pros out there. Reading the NFHS rule book it makes mention of the fact that if a ball is passed to a) a male and he moves his hands to protect his genitals, b) a female who moves her arms to protect her chest is ruled a hand ball.

Do you guys call it that way?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by drh898

Question for you pros out there. Reading the NFHS rule book it makes mention of the fact that if a ball is passed to a) a male and he moves his hands to protect his genitals, b) a female who moves her arms to protect her chest is ruled a hand ball.

Do you guys call it that way?

If it's obvious.

[ref47]

yes. and when i hear objections from the people accustomed to fifa laws, i just smile and say, "high school rules".

[phatneff]

Originally Posted by drh898

Question for you pros out there. Reading the NFHS rule book it makes mention of the fact that if a ball is passed to a) a male and he moves his hands to protect his genitals, b) a female who moves her arms to protect her chest is ruled a hand ball.

Do you guys call it that way?

I personally do not. The main concern within the game is player safety. If they are protecting themselves, without playing the ball at the same time, then I will not call the handling infraction. However, if it that "procedure" is used in a way in which my discretion says they aren't exactly protecting themselves (for example, a girl on a very slow/weak ball in the air towards her chest and then plays it with her arms as a chest ball), then I will call the infraction. It comes down to judgement at that moment.

[kusskke]

If, as stated in the base note, the hands or arms are moved so that the individual can play the ball using them, it is a violation of the rule. To make up your own add-on definations, such as safety factors as stated in this thread, admits you are not refereeing soccer but rather your own version of the game. Carried to an extreme I suppose you could allow the hands and arms to be used to protect the head from brain damage or eye injury, or ear drum concussion.

[ref2coach]

Kusskke many would argue that the NFHS "rules" that contravene the FIFA Laws of the Game ARE the "add on definitions", that create a question as to "what" game is being played. Under TLOG any movement of the hand/arm that is mealy reactive in nature to protect oneself is not to be punished. Only deliberately handling the ball to attempt to create a disadvantage for the opponent is to be punished. Phantnref's explanation IS the "real" soccer definition.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

Kusskke many would argue that the NFHS "rules" that contravene the FIFA Laws of the Game ARE the "add on definitions", that create a question as to "what" game is being played. Under TLOG any movement of the hand/arm that is mealy reactive in nature to protect oneself is not to be punished. Only deliberately handling the ball to attempt to create a disadvantage for the opponent is to be punished. Phantnref's explanation IS the "real" soccer definition.

But the problem is that phatneff also calls it that way in an NFHS game, which is in complete violation of the NFHS rules. In short, he purposely ignores an NFHS rule because he likes the FIFA interpretation better. That's wrong. He shouldn't officiate NFHS games if he doesn't wish to apply the NFHS rules during the contest.

[refnrev]

Yep. It's a hand ball -- and a deliberate move of the hand to hit the ball.

[ref2coach]

NevadaRef I do not disagree with your statement. I have stated before "if you accept and assignment by an organization you use that organizations rules for that contest." I was addressing the statement "not refereeing soccer but rather your own version of the game." I believe NFHS's "handling" interpretation is "wrong" for "soccer"; but personally when I work NFHS games I follow their requirements.

[phatneff]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But the problem is that phatneff also calls it that way in an NFHS game, which is in complete violation of the NFHS rules. In short, he purposely ignores an NFHS rule because he likes the FIFA interpretation better. That's wrong. He shouldn't officiate NFHS games if he doesn't wish to apply the NFHS rules during the contest.

LOL!! I just read this finally. Nevadaref will never miss an opportunity to say I'm wrong and shouldn't be reffing! That just kills me. And YOU got ME banned from the other message board??? Very interesting. You must be pretty good at doing other things other than reffing.......if you know what I mean...........to have the amount of pull you do! LOL!

[OldTimer]

The originally stated query alludes to Rule 12.2 Situation C - and the contact that occurs is ruled as being 'illegal' - that is, deliberate handling has occurred.

However, if you read the definition of 'handling' (at Rule 18.1.1.q), it states that an infraction may only be called if the hand moves 'TOWARD (my emphasis) the ball', or 'carried in an unnatural position'. I believe this description is erroneous and ambiguous. Clearly, 'deliberate handling' may occur WITHOUT the hand (or arm) moving TOWARD the ball. An arm in a natural postion, left there such that the ball strikes it, is an infraction. In reading Rule 12.2 Situation C, the wording states 'the ball touches his/her hand'. It does NOT say he/she moves his/her hand toward the ball. Additionally. I would contend that the movement of the hand to protect the stated sensitive areas does NOT constitute the hand being in an unnatural position! In fact, is in VERY natural for it to be placed there!

OK - all that definition stuff aside, Rule 12 clearly intends that in the described situation (12.2.C), a handling onfrcation shall be called. While this is contrary to the guidance provided by USSF, this is an NFHS contest and THEIR rules must be applied - whether we like it or not, whether it 'makes sense' or not.

The players and coaches who may be involved with USSF for the vast majority of their soccer careers may (dare I say 'will') object if I call 'handling', but will have to be satisfied (or possibly suffer consequences under 12.8.1.c) that the written rule for this NFHS game was correctly applied. You can be sure that the opposing (aggrieved) coach will want it that way! You can also be sure that same player and coach will find that in their next USSF game that I will officiate, I will NOT call 'handling' - unless that hand/arm directs the ball or is placed in that position in other than a quick reflexive motion. If that USSF player can turn, duck or otherwise get out harm's way, that's the option they'd best select; else they too may be penalized as would the NFHS player.

When in Rome, do . . . especially when the Romans are paying you!