Goal or offside play?

[SamG]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

A1 is taking a corner kick, and goalie D1 is closely marking A2 in the middle of the penalty area. The kick is a head-high hard one that seems aimed at A2. However, A3 comes running from afar into the PA on the side closer to A1, and heads the ball into the near part of the goal. At the time A3 headed the ball, he was farther from D's goal line than was A2, and no player of D besides D1 was closer to D's goal. D1 had no chance at the ball where he was positioned, and as long as he thought the corner kick was going to A1, he was going to stay there. A2 was nowhere near D1's line of sight to A3 or the ball.

Do you disallow the goal for A2's being offside and clearly having had the attention of D1 when A3 played the ball? Or do you allow the goal because at the instant A3 played it, A2's offside position was irrelevant in getting D1's attention?

Not a ref, but my understanding is there is no possibility of offside on the corner kick itself. The ball is assumed to be on the touchline. Since, in order to be offside, the offending player needs to be between the ball and the goal, and that can't happen on a corner, in your situation, good goal.

Now, if A1 took the corner, then A2 played it to A3, it would be possible for A3 to offside. But A1 to A3 to goal? Good goal.

Also keep in mind, it's not distance to the GOAL that matters, but distance to the goal LINE. If you picture attacker A1 with the ball at the top of the 18 yard box, attacker A2 actually at the corner arc, and defender D1 at PK spot, if A1 passes to A2, offside should be called. It doesn't matter that D1 is physically closer to the goal.

[LRZ]

Several things come to mind:
(1) As a referee, I would have no idea what D1/GK is thinking or why. The GK's state of mind is irrelevant.
(2) A2 is not offside, A2 is in an offside position, which is not itself a violation.
(3) The only relevant issues are: (a) was A3 onside when the ball was played? and (b) did A2 interfere with the play or an opponent?

As A2 may lawfully be in an offside position, the perception that the GK is focussed on him/her does not create an offside call against A3. The only relevant issue, (3)(b), involves a referee's judgment (and is somewhat a HTBT): did A2 interfere with the GK's ability to play the ball?

A FIFA powerpoint says, in part, that interfering with an opponent "means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball. For example, by clearly obstructing the GK's line of vision or movement."

You can read it here, slide #17: https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...e_en_47383.pdf The HS rule and application are the same.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by LRZ

(2) A2 is not offside, A2 is in an offside position, which is not itself a violation.

Would you please explain this? How is ANY player in an offside position when a corner kick is taken?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by SamG

Would you please explain this? How is ANY player in an offside position when a corner kick is taken?

A1 took the corner kick. When A3 played the ball is when A2 was in an offside position.

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by SamG

Would you please explain this? How is ANY player in an offside position when a corner kick is taken?

I was just pointing out the difference between being offside and being in an offside position. As you noted before, you cannot be offside on a CK.

I never thought about this before, but I guess it is possible to be in an offside position (not offside) on a CK. The rule does not say that you cannot be in an offside position: let's say A2 is on the goal line and the ball is on one yard in from the goal line, on the CK corner arc. I could be wrong, but I do not know of a case or language stating that the ball is assumed to be on the goal line. NFHS Rule 11-1-2 has this language, which suggest that you can be in an offside position on a CK: "A player shall not be penalized for being in an offside position if the ball is received directly from a goal kick, a corner kick or a throw-in."

(By the way, I think you meant "goal line," not "touchline.")

[LRZ]

I would focus on A2, not the GK. It is a referee's judgment call: how is A2 interfering?

And I don't think this requires actual movement by A2; positioning to block the GK's movement could be sufficient, as in slide #18. A HTBT judgment.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by LRZ

I would focus on A2, not the GK. It is a referee's judgment call: how is A2 interfering?

And I don't think this requires actual movement by A2; positioning to block the GK's movement could be sufficient, as in slide #18. A HTBT judgment.

If A2 kept the GK from playing the ball, wouldn't that be obstruction? Not offside?

[LRZ]

Depends on how the GK was prevented from acting. In FIFA, the offense of "impeding the progress of an opponent" (as it is now called in FIFA, I think, although it's still "obstruction" in Fed) requires moving into an opponent's path; merely being in the way is not an offense.

https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...t_en_47379.pdf, slide 29.

Of course, the penalty, an indirect kick, is the same for both offside and impeding.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by LRZ

I was just pointing out the difference between being offside and being in an offside position. As you noted before, you cannot be offside on a CK.

I never thought about this before, but I guess it is possible to be in an offside position (not offside) on a CK. The rule does not say that you cannot be in an offside position: let's say A2 is on the goal line and the ball is on one yard in from the goal line, on the CK corner arc. I could be wrong, but I do not know of a case or language stating that the ball is assumed to be on the goal line. NFHS Rule 11-1-2 has this language, which suggest that you can be in an offside position on a CK: "A player shall not be penalized for being in an offside position if the ball is received directly from a goal kick, a corner kick or a throw-in."

Same rule in FIFA. https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...w%2011_554.pdf

(By the way, I think you meant "goal line," not "touchline.")

Thank you

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LRZ

Several things come to mind:
(1) As a referee, I would have no idea what D1/GK is thinking or why. The GK's state of mind is irrelevant.
(2) A2 is not offside, A2 is in an offside position, which is not itself a violation.
(3) The only relevant issues are: (a) was A3 onside when the ball was played? and (b) did A2 interfere with the play or an opponent?

As A2 may lawfully be in an offside position, the perception that the GK is focussed on him/her does not create an offside call against A3. The only relevant issue, (3)(b), involves a referee's judgment (and is somewhat a HTBT): did A2 interfere with the GK's ability to play the ball?

A FIFA powerpoint says, in part, that interfering with an opponent "means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball. For example, by clearly obstructing the GK's line of vision or movement."

You can read it here, slide #17: https://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd...e_en_47383.pdf The HS rule and application are the same.

Then it seems like basically the situation I'm describing is similar to that shown on pages 13 and 19 -- player in offside position but not interfering or gaining an advantage. The diagrams don't quite capture the situation in that the goalie would've been close to and very intent on the attacking player as positioned (A2 in my story) before A3 played the ball, but since A2 wasn't blocking GK's sight of the ball, nor obstructing his movement, nor (in the short time since A3 played it) making a move toward the ball, it's a clean play.

It's basically the fact that it's a bang-bang play, such that the player in an offside position could not have tactically benefited in that short a period of time, that saves him. Which is a good thing.

This arises from a discussion at Quora.com wherein someone promoted the idea of altering the laws to exempt a player's offside positioning when the ball was played from within the defending side's penalty area. I'd never thought about that before, so I tried to construct a scenario wherein a team would get seriously hosed by application of the extant offside law where the ball was played within the PA, and I came up with this one. I'd thought that the mere fact of the player's having to be marked by the goalie up until the instant the attacking player's teammate, from nearer their own goal line, played the ball, would be enough to disallow the goal. It seemed to fit the description of "distracting" -- until the fact that any such "distraction" did not coexist with offside position for more than a tiny fraction of a second is considered, which meant that if GK was watching the ball, that player wouldn't be a distraction at all. The referee in the discussion there wouldn't answer regarding the scenario I constructed, i.e. this one.