Idea for Article

[mick]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
A simple no-catch signal on the plate umpire's part alerts everyone to the fact that you know that the catcher did not catch the ball. The players respond accordingly and you are not left with cleaning up a manure pile.

Peter,
Makes sense, ...again.
Does MLB teach this?
Is it after the strike three signal?
Is it verbalized?
Thanks.
mick

[WindyCityBlue]

No.

HHH,
I have to disagree with you, just a little...

I know you are a good umpire and enjoy reading your advice, but I travel all over the West and Midwest for my college ball and have never encountered another umpire signal an uncaught third strike. (Am I to assume you are making the "Safe/No Catch" signal?)

At this level, we rarely encounter the guy that is unaware of the drop or the catcher that won't fire it to first.

On a swinging third strike that is not caught, signal it and take your mask off. That is all that either team needs to know. Most of us remove our masks anyway when a ball is in the dirt and a play will ensue. Witha called third, hopefully our younger umpires aren't calling it until a second after it hits the mitt, you'll have a different approach to your "Punch out". Signal the call like a swinging third strike - i.e. closed fist up and out. Take yur mask off and watch what happens.

Much like we don't call "Ball Four, take your base" or "Strike Three, You're Out!", we shouldn't do too overt of an action to assist a player.

I'm sure that you meant well with this and maybe I'm missing something, but a lot of our younger members might get the wrong idea. (Especially with leagues that wish they had catchers who could hold a pitch!)

All the best to you and if you want a laugh or two, check out the latest soap opera on the Football Board about overruling your partner. He just couldn't let it go.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by mick

Peter,
Makes sense, ...again.
Does MLB teach this?
Is it after the strike three signal?
Is it verbalized?
Thanks.
mick

I've seen it at the MiLB level, and I've used it at the HS, JuCo and D-III level. I only use it when the drop isn't obvious (skip into the glove, or hit the glove and drop straight down -- was that a catch or not?) --if the ball is back to the screen, everyone knows it wasn't caught so there's no signal or verbalization. There is a verbal, but I can't remember if mine is "no catch" or "on the ground" or "dropped" or something else -- it's probably been all of those at one time or another.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
No.

HHH,
I have to disagree with you, just a little...

I know you are a good umpire and enjoy reading your advice, but I travel all over the West and Midwest for my college ball and have never encountered another umpire signal an uncaught third strike. (Am I to assume you are making the "Safe/No Catch" signal?)

At this level, we rarely encounter the guy that is unaware of the drop or the catcher that won't fire it to first.

On a swinging third strike that is not caught, signal it and take your mask off. That is all that either team needs to know. Most of us remove our masks anyway when a ball is in the dirt and a play will ensue. Witha called third, hopefully our younger umpires aren't calling it until a second after it hits the mitt, you'll have a different approach to your "Punch out". Signal the call like a swinging third strike - i.e. closed fist up and out. Take yur mask off and watch what happens.

Much like we don't call "Ball Four, take your base" or "Strike Three, You're Out!", we shouldn't do too overt of an action to assist a player.

I'm sure that you meant well with this and maybe I'm missing something, but a lot of our younger members might get the wrong idea. (Especially with leagues that wish they had catchers who could hold a pitch!)

All the best to you and if you want a laugh or two, check out the latest soap opera on the Football Board about overruling your partner. He just couldn't let it go.

WCB;

Yes, I give the safe/no catch signal. So do most of the top umpires in the area in which I work. (Their signal may vary, but they announce their decision.) Some, like me, verbalize it as well. We only do this when there is some doubt such as when the catcher short hops the ball. Likewise, when he catches it on the fly but there is some doubt, I verbalize "That's a catch."

I am not assisting the player. I am telling everyone on the field what I have, even if I am wrong. It is no different than a shoestring catch in right field. As the base umpire, I tell the players "Catch" or "No catch."

Suppose I think that the catcher short hopped the ball when he thinks that he caught it. If I signal no catch, he makes a simple throw to first or tags the runner and there is no crap house. OTOH, if he thinks that he caught it and I disagree and do not make a call, now we have a third world play on our hands.

Preventative umpiring, that's all. Your method, Windy, was popular here until about ten years ago. Then, at the directive of umpire big dogs. we were told to inform the players of what we had. Even if they disagreed with us, they had plenty of time to make a play and therefore we did not get into an argument.

Peter

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I've seen it at the MiLB level, and I've used it at the HS, JuCo and D-III level. I only use it when the drop isn't obvious (skip into the glove, or hit the glove and drop straight down -- was that a catch or not?) --if the ball is back to the screen, everyone knows it wasn't caught so there's no signal or verbalization. There is a verbal, but I can't remember if mine is "no catch" or "on the ground" or "dropped" or something else -- it's probably been all of those at one time or another.

Thanks, bob.
So, the verbalization is a courtesy to the batter, since the catcher already knew he did not make the catch cleanly?
That doesn't seem exactly fair.
Where's the trade off for the defense?
Thanks.
mick

[WindyCityBlue]

Thanks Mick, that was my point.

It was and is still being taught at the two major schools.
It was also used in the CWS by the entire crew.

We all have idiosyncracies that we pick up from talented partners and then other glean them from us. Pretty soon, everyone in our area is doing it.

I work with a few guys that work a lot of Minor League ball. They started announcing "Time..Ball's Dead" when signalling it. I argues that it was repetitive and they countered that it was proactive umpiring (where did I hear that before?), especially in loud ball parks. The "Ball's Dead" part is audible but not loud. Anyway, I started saying it and pretty soon a number of us were. Nothing wrong, just a different mechanic.

[mick]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Thanks Mick, that was my point.

It was and is still being taught at the two major schools.
It was also used in the CWS by the entire crew.

We all have idiosyncracies that we pick up from talented partners and then other glean them from us. Pretty soon, everyone in our area is doing it.

I work with a few guys that work a lot of Minor League ball. They started announcing "Time..Ball's Dead" when signalling it. I argues that it was repetitive and they countered that it was proactive umpiring (where did I hear that before?), especially in loud ball parks. The "Ball's Dead" part is audible but not loud. Anyway, I started saying it and pretty soon a number of us were. Nothing wrong, just a different mechanic.

Uh, oh!
WindyCityBlue, could you please talk sl-o-w-ly for me?
(I am in my all too familiar state of confusion.)

So, like bob and Peter, you do verbalize.

Why is the ball declared dead on a dropped third strike? I know I'm missin' sumthin'.

mick

[WindyCityBlue]

Mick, you might be a moderator, but it is a slippery slope you're treading. But then again, I'm only speaking for me, not all of us, in the colloquial sense.

The "Time...Ball's Dead" reference was an allusion to HHH's reference that certain areas of the country adopt certain patterns of mechanics. I do not kill dropped third strikes.

And, yes, it seems that you are missing something. It seems that you want to parry instead of discuss.

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Aug 25th, 2004 at 05:44 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Mick, you might be a moderator, but it is a slippery slope you're treading. But then again, I'm only speaking for me, not all of us, in the colloquial sense.

The "Time...Ball's Dead" reference was an allusion to HHH's reference that certain areas of the country adopt certain patterns of mechanics. I do not kill dropped third strikes.

And, yes, it seems that you are missing something. It seems that you want to parry instead of discuss.

Okay, thanks.

And no, I am not looking to parry.

Like I said I was confused.
Simple as that.
mick

[WindyCityBlue]

The s-l-o-w-l-y comment was straight from my battle on the Football Board and your comment about not speaking for us was a touch snappy, as well. But, Mick, I will try to offer some thoughts.

You have been around long enough to know when someone actually knows what he/she is talking about and not picking a personality war. You have also seen enough of my posts to know when I'm adding to a topic or chastising/baiting a weaker official. I have thick skin and a sharp tongue, but I also offer 25 years of baseball experience with most of my replies.

I am sure that you've probably read my previous post again. I hope you recognized the change in paragraph as a change in subject. I wasn't trying to be cute or punish HHH. The simple fact is that the mechanic that began this decision is still not being taught at the professional schools. The one I prefer is the one most observed by professional umpires. Is it better? I don't know. Is the mechanic Pete utilizes absurd? By no means; on the contrary, if it works for him and those in his area - terrific. It makes little difference how you make the call, as long as we don't allow a coach to take advantage of his knowledge of our mechanics.

I used to have the habit of subtly pointing at a base when I saw a runner touch it (on a multi bag hit). A few coaches caught on and one day when I acknowledged first, looked hard at second and then pointed to third, the coach requested immediate time and appealed the play at second. I was amazed that he was so aware and dutifully rang him up. After the game, he said that he had been watching me for a while and knew the time would come when he would be able to use it. My signal, as unobtrusive as it was, gave one team the advantage. Now, Peter could argue that anytime he sees me take my mask off on a dropped third strike, I am doing the same as his "No Catch" signal. He would not get an argument from me. My tact is less visible and seems to be preferred by the guys way up there. (No, I don't mean the U.P.)

By the way, Peter, I just saw the Cubs-Brewers game. One dropped third, no signal. But of more importance, you've got to see the ninth inning lead off hit by Mark Grdzulenak (sp?). It tickled the right field foul line and got Yost tossed for arguing. It sure looked like it got one thread of a seam on the chalk. I'm sure it will be on SportCenter tonight and Milwaukee fans will be crying foul, for real!

[mick]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
I am sure that you've probably read my previous post again. I hope you recognized the change in paragraph as a change in subject. I wasn't trying to be cute or punish HHH. The simple fact is that the mechanic that began this decision is still not being taught at the professional schools. The one I prefer is the one most observed by professional umpires. Is it better? I don't know. Is the mechanic Pete utilizes absurd? By no means; on the contrary, if it works for him and those in his area - terrific. It makes little difference how you make the call, as long as we don't allow a coach to take advantage of his knowledge of our mechanics.

I used to have the habit of subtly pointing at a base when I saw a runner touch it (on a multi bag hit). A few coaches caught on and one day when I acknowledged first, looked hard at second and then pointed to third, the coach requested immediate time and appealed the play at second. I was amazed that he was so aware and dutifully rang him up. After the game, he said that he had been watching me for a while and knew the time would come when he would be able to use it. My signal, as unobtrusive as it was, gave one team the advantage. Now, Peter could argue that anytime he sees me take my mask off on a dropped third strike, I am doing the same as his "No Catch" signal. He would not get an argument from me. My tact is less visible and seems to be preferred by the guys way up there. (No, I don't mean the U.P.)

WindyCityBlue,
That's what I'm talkin' about. Thank you!

First off, I do respect knowledge. Thus, I was curious as to why Peter and bob, both of whom know more about baseball than I ever will, gave the tip-off to the batter, because all I do is take off my mask after making the strike signal and observe.

(I once spent an after-game-drink with bob and tripled my baseball savvy.)

Secondly, I am most pleased that you, with your experience, have reinforced my mechanics, right down to that dang point at bases that I stopped several years ago.

I really try hard to be correct, but since cats may be skinned in a number of ways, what is of more importance to me while officiating any game is to not be wrong.

I think that in some lower levels of ball making a statement indicating the ball was dropped, can, in fact, subtly make the game better for some players. (Here, I am thinking 13-yr.old-15-yr.old ages) Yet, I haven't used the "uncaught signal" ever that I remember.

I think the reason I do not use that signal is for the same reason that my plate meetings are so short, because I believe everyone in the game already knows the old rules and the new rules.

Anyway, thanks for your reponse on this. I appreciate it.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue

I have thick skin and a sharp tongue, but I also offer 25 years of baseball experience with most of my replies.

And you got ZERO years of basketball and football experience too. However, that doesn't stop you from offering your ZERO year's worth of knowledge to their debates though, does it?

Don't mind me. I like baiting weaker officials too.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

And you got ZERO years of basketball and football experience too. However, that doesn't stop you from offering your ZERO year's worth of knowledge to their debates though, does it?

Don't mind me. I like baiting weaker officials too.