Overruling your partner?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen

Why would an official who doesn't understand this very simple, basic, no-brainer of a rule regarding a backcourt violation, be placed in such a big varsity game with playoff implications?
Just wondering.

C'mon...he earned it by marrying the assignor's sister.

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

C'mon...he earned it by marrying the assignor's sister.

No, he was assigned by the UPAC.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by mick

No, he was assigned by the UPAC.

Easy now, mick!

[zebraman]

Originally posted by oatmealqueen


Why would an official who doesn't understand this very simple, basic, no-brainer of a rule regarding a backcourt violation, be placed in such a big varsity game with playoff implications?
Just wondering.

What I have seen in my local area is that good veteran officals often tend to get lazy in regards to high school games. They quit going to camps, they stop reading the rule books (especially our college officials who think that they can get by on their "presence" rather than continuing to study the rules and mechanics of NFHS), they get a little lazy in their pregame conferences and they forget coverage areas for 2-person games.

Z

[tomegun]

I don't really agree with the statement about college officials. Sometimes it happens but I think once an official does or doesn't do something that will harm the game we as officials should step up.

I cringe every time I hear about just getting the call right. When we take the assignment isn't that our goal? When we put getting the call right above all else chaos can take a game over. It is like a license to look all over the court. Sure there are areas that are dual and times when we need assistance with our line but saying "let's just get it right" means (to me) you're looking there and I'm looking there too just in case you miss something. Since I know some will not like these comments let me throw this out there. How many times do these situations involve an off-ball play? Is it coincidence that this happens on ball? I don't think so. I think "getting it right" results in more than one set of eyes being on the ball too much. I'm not talking about OOB plays. One thing I pre-game is we have to be careful on OOB plays. Right or wrong, the reality of OOB plays is if the play is right in front of me I might have a reason for who I give the ball to. If the ball comes from out of my primary or there is space between the players in my primary with no "incidental" contact then that is a different story. It is a matter of getting the call incorrect or making the call to avoid a foul. Now, I have been told by evaluators at camps this summer that thinking is out the window. If it is a foul call it a foul. The reason for this is tape doesn't lie. It was said over and over "we have to beat the tape."

To over-rule or not to over-rule? No, I don't think it is right. There is always an exception to the rule but generally speaking, no.

[OverAndBack]

So....if it's not in your primary, you shouldn't have seen it anyway, right?

And if it is in your primary, your partner shouldn't overrule you. But if you realize right away that you blew it, you could stop the proceedings and get a little help, just in case?

So if your partner asks, and you happened to see it, you should give him/her your input? Other than that, save it for a time out or debrief?

I haven't been at this long enough where I would take offense to being overruled by a more experienced official. Maybe someday I would. But even though I might look like a jerk, I'd rather get the call right and learn from the experience.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
What I have seen in my local area is that good veteran officals often tend to get lazy in regards to high school games. They quit going to camps, they stop reading the rule books (especially our college officials who think that they can get by on their "presence" rather than continuing to study the rules and mechanics of NFHS), they get a little lazy in their pregame conferences and they forget coverage areas for 2-person games.

Z

Z,

It sounds like you guys have a bigger problem in your area.

I almost hate the fact I used the word "presence" about two years ago, because I think folks have taken that to mean that you are not concerned with the rules of the game. One does not exclude the other. You have to know the rules, but you also have to know how to communicate with coaches and players and handle yourself on the court. Just because I have people skills and can speak well to coaches, does not exclude me from reading the rulebook or understanding what mechanics I should use.

I am sure that things are different in your area, but in my area the college officials are usually the best to work with. They are the ones that constantly go to camps and constantly are trying to get better. And in our state it is required to maintain our license to attend camps every 3 years. Of course there are some that wait the 3 years, but many go to at least one every year. Of course you get guys that lose sight of their mission on the court and stop paying attention to a lot of things, let alone the rulebook. In my opinion that is not because they aspire to have more presence. That is more because they forget what might have got them to where they are. But the officials that constantly get playoff opportunities are usually people that have the entire package to some extent. There is always an official or two that some might think to themselves, “how did they get there?" But they usually do not get there by messing up major rules in big regular season games or playoff games.

Peace

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

You have to know the rules, but you also have to know how to communicate with coaches and players and handle yourself on the court. Just because I have people skills and can speak well to coaches, does not exclude me from reading the rulebook or understanding what mechanics I should use.

Amen to that Rut!

I am sure that things are different in your area, but in my area the college officials are usually the best to work with. They are the ones that constantly go to camps and constantly are trying to get better.
Peace

I love working with those guys Rut... and I hope that others that I work with think I am in that group. There are some of those "always trying to get better" officials around here too, but I have had more than my share of experiences with "bigtimers" who have forgot what got them there.

Z

[JRutledge]

Z,

We all have bigtimers. So I understand where you are coming from.

Peace

[Oz Referee]

I agree with what several others have said in this post - it is never acceptable to "over-rule" a partner, but it is essential that if you saw something different that you discuss it.

Part of my pre-game is discussing simultaneous whistles, and how to quickly and efficiently sort them out. If I call something one way, and my partner has seen it another, I want to know.

Although they happen mainly on out of bounds, I have also had a couple of block/charge situations where one of us has called it one way, but after talking it over, we have decided it should have gone the other.

As a general rule - if it is in my area, then I have the final say, but I will happily talk to you about it.

[canuckrefguy]

Interesting discussion...

Our ultimate goal is to get it right. In that regard, I have been "overruled" a few times in my career - I call white ball, partner tweets, jogs over, gives me info, I tweet and reverse the call - no hesitation, no question, because I know my partner must be very sure.

I have also "overruled" a few times. Of course, like the "admitting mistakes to coaches" thing, do it too often and it's a problem.

Trouble is, the line between help and hinder is fuzzy, and moves around a lot. Pregaming those situations cuts them down to only the ones where overruling is the right thing to do.

If we approach all of these situations with the attitude that "the crew MUST look good", those overrule situations become less like catastrophic events and more like routine ones.

[tomegun]

Can someone tell me what is meant by "our ultimate goal is to get it right" or any other statement like that? I know what it means but I want to know what is meant by those on this board in basketball terms. I don't want to think the wrong thing so I want to make sure I'm on point with my thinking.

I totally agree about bigtimers. They make it tough on the crew. Fortunately for me, I think I've been in the stands watching bigtimers more than I've been on the court with one. For every person who is like this there are probably 10 who aren't. Those 10 should get credit too.

[JRutledge]

tomegun,

I cannot speak for everyone, but I know that you can only get certain calls right (helping your partner). You cannot change foul calls and you cannot change most violations. You might be able to help out on a couple of out of bounds calls, but that really is it. You can give information that will help them apply all the rules correctly, like telling them the basket went in the basket (or did not go in). You might even help with giving the proper number when there is a question of who fouled. But if I call a foul that is wrong, you cannot change that. If I pass on a foul or some contact, your partner should not assume there was a foul, when you pass on a play. And if a partner is constantly making calls in their partner's area, then what are they missing? I have no problem with officials acting like human beings and realizing we are going to miss things. I think "getting it right" can only go so far. There are coverage areas and times when to give help and times when not to give help. I know most of the time I will not help if I am unclear as to what just took place. If my partner is asking for help that is the best time to help in my opinion. I could be wrong, but I believe there are people that feel they have to extend themselves more than what I have stated. We have to after all trust our partners. If they make mistakes we should support them. Be we should also not do their job either.

Peace

I would never overrule my partner.

I have brought in information to my partners when it was OBVIOUS it should be different (but only on violations). I have also been asked for help on a tip they were not sure who it went off of. I have also had a partner come up to me say he knows he kicked the call and that he's going to give it to the other team (I didn't have to say anything).

I never discuss/help on the floor a partners foul call (be it charge/block etc.) as it shows the coaches that I'm running the show and I don't feel my P. is strong (we are supposed to be a team). Those are left for discussion at the next opportunity (T.O., Quarter/Half time) then I only ask what they saw on that play. You may want to discuss in your pregame a hand signal for each other to tell them to remember that play - this makes it easier to discuss later on.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by cingram
I have also had a partner come up to me say he knows he kicked the call and that he's going to give it to the other team (I didn't have to say anything).

This is such a good option for both partners. I love that this tool is available.