Misapplied rule in Oklahoma HS playoffs

[paulsonj72]

Originally Posted by zm1283

These people at OKC Public Schools are complete jackwads. This is a high school football game.

I can't believe a court has jurisdiction over something like this.

Stuff like this comes from our society's current mentality of instant gratification. We can't tell kids that sh*t happens and things may not go their way sometimes and they may get the short end of the stick. We have to keep everyone happy.

Old man rant over.

OT and somewhat political here but bear with me as I will try to answer the question here in regards to why the judge ruled the way he did. In most states district court judges are elected to the seat they are sitting in so this is a way for the judge to TRY and have people remember him the next time his seat comes up for election and that he tried to something for the people who are in the electorate. Now in most other states when something lie this has been done and the case goes to a higher court the judgement(if against the defendant) has been reversed as most state courts have ruled they(the courts) do not have jurisdiction over high school athletics. Case law across the country on this matter is pretty solid.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

No you shouldn't. It should just be the best crew you can get. So if you have two teams with white coaches, the crew should be all white? Then there would be an uproar over not using black officials. Race shouldn't matter. The fact is they enforced from the wrong spot, that's it. It just so happens that 3 of the 5 calling this game were black, including the referee, who has been officiating football for 32 years. Why arent his motives called into question?

What should matter and what does matter are two different things. It was brought up wasn't it?

I did not say that this crew did anything wrong other than the rules application, but I can tell you that this often gets brought up in my state in other sports. Football does not have the type of accomplishment from certain areas so you hardly have this as an issue. But the optics can matter and if you have more diversity, you can avoid this even being mentioned. The "best crew" is subjective anyway. And it obviously mattered in the movie based on a real situation during "High School Lights." It is unfortunate, but it happens.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Putting aside some mobility issues by the crew, I can not for the life of me figure out why at least one of 5 guys on a state quarterfinal game crew could not go in there with the correct enforcement. It appears Fed enforcement on this is the same as NCAA and if so, its not a tricky enforcement.

The video doesn't make clear -- where did they end up enforcing the foul from? The previous spot?

Is there any action being taken on the antics after the game?

Yes. They enforced from the previous spot.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And this is why you should consider the makeup of the crew in order to eliminate that issue. Not always possible, but it is factored in many times so that these issues can be about the situation and not destracted by a side issue.

That being said, not sure why this was not corrected. Peace

Suggesting, "The makeup of the crew" would make any difference whatsoever is ridiculous and a useless effort to pander towards those in our society unable to look, or see, past their nose and are interested in advancing ONLY their personal agenda that has nothing to do with football. This is nothing more than continuing the effort to apply EXCESS oil to an EVER squeaking wheel that ignores, even thinking about applying the personal lubrication available to correct it's problems.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Suggesting, "The makeup of the crew" would make any difference whatsoever is ridiculous and a useless effort to pander towards those in our society unable to look, or see, past their nose and are interested in advancing ONLY their personal agenda that has nothing to do with football. This is nothing more than continuing the effort to apply EXCESS oil to an EVER squeaking wheel that ignores, even thinking about applying the personal lubrication available to correct it's problems.

I am not pandering to anyone, just telling you what would help solve the problem. If you feel that it will not, that is fine. But do not think what you think is going to make the situation go away.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not pandering to anyone, just telling you what would help solve the problem. If you feel that it will not, that is fine. But do not think what you think is going to make the situation go away.

Peace

How does it solve anything IN THIS INSTANCE -- there were 3 African-Americans on the crew already, no?

I've worked games in mostly African-American schools.

I've hired African-American officials in all-white, rural schools.

I've worked in some very interesting places -- I remember the one school in New Orleans about 17 years ago where I was the only white person in the building, refereeing a boys varsity game. I had no problems at all. Coach made a joke about it near the end of the game and made sure he followed it up with an invitation to come back anytime.

Personally, I just think it's sad that people out there still make this an issue, but I also think that saying it's not an issue is just as wrong and quite naive.

I'm not sure of the answer, but I'm not about to hire for my crew or my conference based on this kind of thing.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not pandering to anyone, just telling you what would help solve the problem. If you feel that it will not, that is fine. But do not think what you think is going to make the situation go away.

Peace

It's a bandaid. It's like solving deaths by gunshot by issuing bullet proof deaths. Sure, it helps, but it doesn't get to the root of the problem. The root problem isn't the racial makeup of the crew. The root problem is the attitudes of the people involved.

[JRutledge]

When you have diversity in all situations, it is harder for those to claim much anything about who they are dealing with. When you don't, you open the door up for things like this being said.

I do not care about how many were on one game. I care about who you have for all the games. I would not be surprised that there was probably not a entirely African-American crew on this school's schedule. And if they did, how many times did that take place. Why does that matter? It matters to help eliminate any assumption of bias or inappropriate behavior with the participants. Just like people complain about where we live and who we are bias against based on where we live, we can do the same with make-up of the crew. Just like in the news with the issues with police, many of the outcries change if you have a diversity in the work force. If you don't, then you will have these issues being raised over and over and over again.

Peace

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When you have diversity in all situations, it is harder for those to claim much anything about who they are dealing with. When you don't, you open the door up for things like this being said.

I do not care about how many were on one game. I care about who you have for all the games. I would not be surprised that there was probably not a entirely African-American crew on this school's schedule. And if they did, how many times did that take place. Why does that matter? It matters to help eliminate any assumption of bias or inappropriate behavior with the participants. Just like people complain about where we live and who we are bias against based on where we live, we can do the same with make-up of the crew. Just like in the news with the issues with police, many of the outcries change if you have a diversity in the work force. If you don't, then you will have these issues being raised over and over and over again.

Peace

In other words, attitudes. There's no evidence of actual different treatment, only an "assumption of bias or inappropriate behavior." Sending an all African-American crew to one or even all Douglass's games would do nothing to address those attitudes other than to justify them.

[LeRoy]

My question to the coach - Why did YOU get a penalty that late in the game. YOU should apologize to your kids and fans and say to them if I would have NOT gotten the penalty our boys would have won the game. Also I hope as independent contractors (Officials) in that area that they boycott working ANY football games at Douglass High School next year. Let's all remember this all started as the coach made a mistake!!!! like getting a penalty. It all falls on his shoulders!!!!!!!!!!! Now we have a judge stopping football that is NOT right. I also have questions what happens if they are forced to replay the game and there is a major incident like a kid blowing out his ACL or something else. Who is going to be responsible for that ??

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Suudy

In other words, attitudes. There's no evidence of actual different treatment, only an "assumption of bias or inappropriate behavior." Sending an all African-American crew to one or even all Douglass's games would do nothing to address those attitudes other than to justify them.

Attitudes have a lot to do with what we do. Why do people not work their Alma mater? Why do people not work at schools their kids or relatives attend? Why do people not work games in the town they live?

It is not because they are going to do anything bias.

Heck I got off a game last year where the girl I was seriously dating and now live with, her cousin was the coach of one of the teams. Now I would have been totally professional if I had to work the game. But I told the tournament director that of this association and allowed him to move me if he saw fit. Why do you think I had that conversation with the TD and my girlfriend's cousins? Attitudes. This is just another reason all things need to be considered as well. Because what was the accusation that someone has to answer for? Yep you got it.

Peace

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Attitudes have a lot to do with what we do. Why do people not work their Alma mater? Why do people not work at schools their kids or relatives attend? Why do people not work games in the town they live?

It is not because they are going to do anything bias.

Heck I got off a game last year where the girl I was seriously dating and now live with, her cousin was the coach of one of the teams. Now I would have been totally professional if I had to work the game. But I told the tournament director that of this association and allowed him to move me if he saw fit. Why do you think I had that conversation with the TD and my girlfriend's cousins? Attitudes. This is just another reason all things need to be considered as well. Because what was the accusation that someone has to answer for? Yep you got it.

Peace

Please don't misunderstand me. Attitudes do have an impact. My argument is that attitudes about race shouldn't matter. Unlike your situation, your association with others was a choice. Race isn't a choice. And attitudes that because of race there should be or has been different treatment are the source of the problem here. Pandering to people's attitudes (with respect to intrinsic, unalterable characteristics) in order to avoid perceptions of bias does nothing to change those attitudes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Please don't misunderstand me. Attitudes do have an impact. My argument is that attitudes about race shouldn't matter. Unlike your situation, your association with others was a choice. Race isn't a choice. And attitudes that because of race there should be or has been different treatment are the source of the problem here. Pandering to people's attitudes (with respect to intrinsic, unalterable characteristics) in order to avoid perceptions of bias does nothing to change those attitudes.

Attitudes about where you live should not matter but they do. And that is why at least in Basketball the State of Kentucky has a law about the racial diversity of the officials that work the State Finals or post season. And it is even a law that the officials that work the Kentucky-Louisville football game, cannot be residence from the state of Kentucky as well. When they used to play that game early in the year, many Chicago area officials or Big Ten crews worked that game to avoid that conflict.

I am not talking about what should be the case. I am talking about what is the case. And we can put our head in the sand about what the world should be like, but in this case that issue was raised whether it was valid or not.


I did not say I was supporting the coach in what he said or the claim he made. Just stating that often times how you come up with a crew can help eliminate perceptions that are often held regardless of how true those perceptions might be.

Peace

[Rich]

Instead of changing the crew, how about changing the coach instead? Obviously that's the one with the problem.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

Best of the Best should get the call at this time of the year.Here in California the CIF-SS will only hear eligibility protests.Any protests involving NFHS rules are to be handled at the contest and coaches are encouraged to carry the rulebook with them at all times.