facemask

[MRD]

A has the ball 4th and 20 from on their own 30 They run the ball to their 48 where there is a 15 yd facemask penalty. We awarded the ball to B at the A 45 because A did not reach the line to gain even after the fm penalty. Did we get it right?

[Scuba_ref]

20 yards to reach the line to gain; they run it 18 and you tack on 15 for the penalty that adds up to a first down in my book. This is not enforced from the previous spot but from the end of the run!

So, no you did not get it right.

[Welpe]

You didn't get this right on a couple of levels:

A) Team A did reach the line to gain (the 50) after the penalty. The penalty should have been enforced from the end of the related run, which is the B-48. It should have been 1st and 10 at the B-37.

B) If you screwed up and enforced this from the previous spot, you failed to replay the down. It sounds like you enforced the penalty from the wrong spot and the penalized Team A with a loss of down.

This is going to be a little harsh but may I recommend you spend some serious time studying Rule 10 before you work your next game?

[MRD]

sorry I screwed up that post . they ran it 3 yards and the fm penalty made it 18 yards

[Welpe]

Then it should have been 4th and 2 at the A-48. Team A has a right to replay the down after the accepted penalty.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Then it should have been 4th and 2 at the A-48. Team A has a right to replay the down after the accepted penalty.

Of course if you are in Texas or Massachusetts (under NCAA rules), a FMM also carries an automatic first down. Under NFHS rules, it does not.

[MRD]

Actually, my question was re the loss of down. I thought A should have 4th and 2 but I was overruled. What section of rule 10 specifically addresses this situation? Thanks for your help

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MRD

Actually, my question was re the loss of down. I thought A should have 4th and 2 but I was overruled. What section of rule 10 specifically addresses this situation? Thanks for your help

Most of it. Let me ask you this... can you think of any live ball penalty on the defense that involves loss of down against the offense?

Off sides on 1st and 10, it's 1st and 5.
etc...

Why would a facemask be any different?

[Rich]

I've run into this with other officials -- they think because the foul is enforced from the end of the run that the down should count.

They, as they say, would be wrong.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Most of it. Let me ask you this... can you think of any live ball penalty on the defense that involves loss of down against the offense?

Off sides on 1st and 10, it's 1st and 5.
etc...

Why would a facemask be any different?

No such foul (offside) in NFHS rules.

[HLin NC]

Also might want to concentrate on Fundamentals section, particularly I.6 "No foul causes the loss of the ball".

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by MRD

Actually, my question was re the loss of down. I thought A should have 4th and 2 but I was overruled. What section of rule 10 specifically addresses this situation? Thanks for your help

This is why ALL crew members must be sharp on the rules. Don't rely on the WH all the time.

Also, this is a situation where if the coaches made an effort to learn the rules, they could have helped their team.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Also might want to concentrate on Fundamentals section, particularly I.6 "No foul causes the loss of the ball".

I don't think that applies, though. There are fouls that contain a LOD provision where the ball would've turned over on downs anyway, even with enforcement.

This fundamental prevents a crew from giving B the ball on OPI "because B would've obviously intercepted it."

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by MRD

A has the ball 4th and 20 from on their own 30 They run the ball to their 33 where there is a 15 yd facemask penalty. We awarded the ball to B at the A 45 because A did not reach the line to gain even after the fm penalty. Did we get it right?

In quoting you above, I corrected the typo you made with regard to distance gained on the run.

Think of this: does it make sense that Team B can terminate the play illegally, and then benefit from that act? The benefit to which I'm speaking is your crew awarding them possession because Team A "didn't" gain yards.

The answer to which should be the cause for a light bulb to go off in your crew member's heads.

And if this did make sense, then we'd see this type of play all the time in football. And we don't see this at all in football, which at the very least should raise a flag in your mind and hopefully get the crew together to talk about the enforcement.