The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Football (https://forum.officiating.com/football/)
-   -   Snap before ready to play (https://forum.officiating.com/football/96222-snap-before-ready-play.html)

sorrydog Sun Oct 06, 2013 08:25am

Snap before ready to play
 
Offense makes first down 20 yards down field and runs a quick offense. Chains are in the process of being moved and ball is spotted. Umpire is somewhat standing close to the ball and Ready for play has not been blown. The snapper snaps the ball.
The two things to remember: 1. Chains not set 2. Ready-for-play not giving.

What we got?:eek:

maven Sun Oct 06, 2013 09:53am

Sub-varsity: probably a "don't do that" in most cases; tight JV game I might treat as varsity.

Varsity: DOG 3-6-2e

sorrydog Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 906841)
Sub-varsity: probably a "don't do that" in most cases; tight JV game I might treat as varsity.

Varsity: DOG 3-6-2e

Well is it delay of game, false start? Would you have 1st and 10 or 1st and 15?

maven Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sorrydog (Post 906842)
Well is it delay of game, false start? Would you have 1st and 10 or 1st and 15?

Ah, I see your real question. You'd enforce the DOG 5 yards, set the chains for the new series, and have A 1/10 from there.

The line to gain is not established until the RFP. 5-3-1

It can't possibly be a false start, since the ball was not ready. 7-1-7

Robert Goodman Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:07pm

And according to what was written in a thread here about a week ago, in NCAA, you've got a real problem, since they're not required to "chop", whistle, or otherwise signal the RFP if the 40-sec. rule is in effect. Team A has no notice other than looking at the chain crew of whether they're allowed to snap the ball or not.

Welpe Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 906865)
And according to what was written in a thread here about a week ago, in NCAA, you've got a real problem, since they're not required to "chop", whistle, or otherwise signal the RFP if the 40-sec. rule is in effect. Team A has no notice other than looking at the chain crew of whether they're allowed to snap the ball or not.

The notice is that if ball is on the ground but it cannot be snapped yet, the umpire will tell the snapper not to snap the ball.

bisonlj Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 906871)
The notice is that if ball is on the ground but it cannot be snapped yet, the umpire will tell the snapper not to snap the ball.

Correct. Sometimes I hold up the snap because I'm waiting for others on the crew to get back to their positions. The RFP is essentially when I step back (Rule 2-2-4a: A dead ball is ready for play when with the 40-second play clock running, an official places the ball at a hash mark or between the inbounds marks and steps away to his position). I'll ask the QB to please give me a second or two to get out of harm's way but they technically can snap it as soon as I step back. It can be dangerous in the middle.

Rich Mon Oct 07, 2013 04:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sorrydog (Post 906838)
Offense makes first down 20 yards down field and runs a quick offense. Chains are in the process of being moved and ball is spotted. Umpire is somewhat standing close to the ball and Ready for play has not been blown. The snapper snaps the ball.
The two things to remember: 1. Chains not set 2. Ready-for-play not giving.

What we got?:eek:

The U should be over the ball and prevent the snap.

It's rare that a team should be able to snap before a RFP. Makes me think the R is a little pokey in that aspect of the game. We don't need the full chains set to wind the clock. Spot on a yard line, get the box man close enough to get the yard line verbally by the H (assuming you have a good chain crew), and go. A good box man will realize he's the key and will hustle to the H's spot and the chains can fill in afterwards.

MD Longhorn Mon Oct 07, 2013 08:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 906865)
And according to what was written in a thread here about a week ago, in NCAA, you've got a real problem, since they're not required to "chop", whistle, or otherwise signal the RFP if the 40-sec. rule is in effect. Team A has no notice other than looking at the chain crew of whether they're allowed to snap the ball or not.

Spoken like someone who has never been on the field. What a load of nonsense.

Next Saturday, find a team that runs the hurry up and watch the umpire.

Robert Goodman Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 906892)
Spoken like someone who has never been on the field. What a load of nonsense.

Next Saturday, find a team that runs the hurry up and watch the umpire.

Sorry, no time to watch stuff played by NCAA, coaching our own game. In fact, the last time I watched a game played by NCAA, this sort of thing was R's responsibility, not U's.

MD Longhorn Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 906901)
Sorry, no time to watch stuff played by NCAA, coaching our own game. In fact, the last time I watched a game played by NCAA, this sort of thing was R's responsibility, not U's.

Fair enough, but if you've not seen an NCAA game in recent memory, perhaps suggesting that the NCAA has problems with a particular rule is not really in your wheelhouse.

Also ... I don't believe the R has spotted the ball in the NCAA in the last ... um ... ever.

jTheUmp Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 906905)
Also ... I don't believe the R has spotted the ball in the NCAA in the last ... um ... ever.

Depends on the crew... the mechanics manual says that either the R or the U can spot the ball, although in practice most crews I've seen/worked with let the U spot the ball in almost every situation. The main exception seems to be on a sack with a large loss of distance (15+ yards); then a lot of times the R will spot the ball before the U gets there.

Robert Goodman Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 906905)
Fair enough, but if you've not seen an NCAA game in recent memory, perhaps suggesting that the NCAA has problems with a particular rule is not really in your wheelhouse.

Also ... I don't believe the R has spotted the ball in the NCAA in the last ... um ... ever.

Ever is a long time. For a very long time that was strictly R's responsibility--starting with when they stopped having team A's snapper put the ball down at the linesman's spot. But it's good they gave that to U, who had more free time once subs stopped having to report to him--and even more free time in 5+ crews when they gave the 25 sec. clock to the BJ.

MD Longhorn Mon Oct 07, 2013 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 906910)
Ever is a long time. For a very long time that was strictly R's responsibility--starting with when they stopped having team A's snapper put the ball down at the linesman's spot. But it's good they gave that to U, who had more free time once subs stopped having to report to him--and even more free time in 5+ crews when they gave the 25 sec. clock to the BJ.

My 1939 rulebook (the earliest I've been able to find ... I collect these) doesn't say one way or another (no mechanics section at all). My 1947 book has a brief mechanics section but doesn't include this, and in the rule it just says "the official". Ditto 1949 and 1952. 1955 specifies spotting the ball as a duty of the umpire.

Does anyone have a copy (or link to) the Waynesburg / Fordham game in 1939 - we could look and see.

In any case, I would still hope you might refrain from saying the NCAA has a problem with a rule since you've not seen a game in quite a while. Maybe?

JRutledge Mon Oct 07, 2013 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 906879)
The U should be over the ball and prevent the snap.

There is still a brief time where the U has to back off and when I was the WH on my crew, I gave the U time to get into a safe place. Sometimes teams do not listen and snap the ball anyway. Sometimes players just do not listen to our warnings to "not snap the ball."

Peace


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:22pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1