Wow! KCI

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So by "that situation" you meant double fouls in general, not this situation?

I will say it this way. Last night at one of my associations met, the topic was Penalty Enforcement. This association is geared towards HS and college officials and many of the presenters or people in the room work D1 football and many crew chiefs.

When the issue of double fouls came up, no one gave any caveats to how or when, they said in both the HS and college presentations, "We do not need to talk to anyone." Now this specific situation was not mentioned, but this situation is not a "clean hands" situation and that is the prevailing attitude here. If that is not what guys where you are do it, once again I am fine with that. But where I live, most are not making a big stink over asking coaches in these kinds of situation. I have been in this area and apart of this particular association (I belong to others as well) for over 10 years and listened to guys who I see on TV both in college and the NFL speak on what they do and never have I heard anyone make a caveat for a punt where R might decline the penalty just because they get the ball. If it is a double foul by rule, we replay the down. And that is why I said what the down and distance might be could factor in, because replaying the down might realistically give K the opportunity to run a play from scrimmage and get a first down. Never heard anyone suggest, "Well I do not know what the coach thinks about his returner" as a factor to replaying the down. Then again I am not a Referee on a regular basis anymore but when I was no one said "boo" when we would replay the down in a similar situation. I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to complain about in the first place. If they want to keep the ball, they better make more noise that is a possibility.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Jeff ... I get your point on most double fouls. And your other point on clean-hands situations.

But I would ask on any double foul on a play involving COP like punt or kickoff returns where the result of the double foul is a rekick.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Jeff ... I get your point on most double fouls. And your other point on clean-hands situations.

But I would ask on any double foul on a play involving COP like punt or kickoff returns where the result of the double foul is a rekick.

I think we all get each other's points. I just do not think that much changes because it is a punt. And even when the issue where you get the ball at the 35 on your side of the ball, I am certainly not having much discussion there for sure in that situation.

It is OK to disagree sometimes.

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When the issue of double fouls came up, no one gave any caveats to how or when, they said in both the HS and college presentations, "We do not need to talk to anyone."

In general, that is going to be true.

• With fouls by both teams where the team last in possession fouled before gaining possession, there are no options at all. The fouls automatically offset and the down is replayed.
  
• If Team B got the ball with clean hands, they are going to want it so them declining Team A's foul is obvious. No need to ask here.

Now this specific situation was not mentioned, but this situation is not a "clean hands" situation and that is the prevailing attitude here.

This specific situation is where clean hands is disregarded due to B's foul being PSK. It's a fairly specific situation and the only one involving fouls by both teams where I can think we should ask. It's rare and doesn't happen often. I don't think a choice is obvious here. Team B may want to replay the down and see if their return is better. Team B may be happy to have the ball back and not care about the penalty being enforced against them.

And that is why I said what the down and distance might be could factor in, because replaying the down might realistically give K the opportunity to run a play from scrimmage and get a first down.

Good point and it may be reason enough that Team B decides they'll take the play and the ball.

I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to complain about in the first place. If they want to keep the ball, they better make more noise that is a possibility.

I certainly agree coaches need to know the rules but I also think we should present options when appropriate. This is one of those regional things, here we have to care quite a bit about what the coaches complain about. If they have the perception that we aren't doing a good job, we are going to lose games as a crew.

Obviously not as big of an issue in your area. Here the coach's opinion is king.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I certainly agree coaches need to know the rules but I also think we should present options when appropriate. This is one of those regional things, here we have to care quite a bit about what the coaches complain about. If they have the perception that we aren't doing a good job, we are going to lose games as a crew.

Obviously not as big of an issue in your area. Here the coach's opinion is king.

Once again, I did not say we say nothing or we completely ignore coaches. I even said earlier that if the crew is doing their job properly we are telling the coach what happened on the play. I do not know many coaches that want to take a significant penalty and keep the ball without replaying the down.

And thank God I do not live in that system. We have coach's ratings now (they took away official's ratings this year) and I never worry about what coaches do ultimately. And I have yet to see a coach get upset when we replay the down because of a double foul. The only time coaches get upset is when they think they will not get penalized and we do.

Peace

[youngump]

Relatedly watching Oregon State-Utah tonight, on a kickoff:
K block in the back at the 37.
R block in the back at the 10.

They showed the official giving the R coach his choices. (It was the wing on his side). The look on his face suggested that he was not at all impressed with a crew that couldn't figure out he'd rather have a rekick than take the ball at the 5.