Wow! KCI

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The coach best knows if his punt return team is worth a damn or not. Maybe they aren't or the kick returner has hands made of butter and that having the ball period is a good option for them.

The fouls don't offset automatically and the decision is not obvious so I'm giving them an option in this case.

I agree with this. There are pluses and minuses to either option so we need to present them to the team. There are times the options are obvious (i.e. false start, encroachment, hold by A on a TD run). There are times when it may be obvious but you still want to check. I see this as one of them.

I had a similar situation in a late round playoff game. K is ahead by 7 with 40 seconds left. 4th and 16 from the K44. K gets the punt off and it goes out of bounds around the R35. I have a hold on the LG (obvious take down at the LOS). I report it to the R but tell him I assume R will decline it because R will likely want the ball with no more time taken off the clock (they are out of timeouts). I pick up my flag and head downfield to get the ball ready for the next series. My R yells at me that R wants the penalty. I go to get a ball from the K sideline and they don't understand why R wants the penalty. I enforce the penalty at the K40 back to the K30. I realize that since crazy things can happen on punts it may not be a bad idea to accept the penalty. Guess what...K's next kick goes out of bounds at the K28! Smart move by the R coach. They gained over 30 yards on the play. They tied the game and won in OT. Situations we think are obvious aren't always obvious. Ask as clearly as possible.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CT1

10-1-1.


Not if there's no option.


Then you should ask on EVERY foul where there's an option, shouldn't you?

Just admit you misspoke & let's move on.

I do not ask on fouls where there is an option and the option is obvious.

PLAY:A 1/10, A20. Run by A goes to the A33 yard line. Holding foul by A66 at the A22. You actually get a captain and present the options on that?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

There you go, all wrapped up in your own little universe. Maybe it doesn't make any difference in your game on that night.

But what about the crew that has that team next week? Or the week after? What are they to say when the coach says "The crew we had last week did it differently?"

That's why it makes a difference.

I do not think there is a right or wrong here. I think is you do what works for you and your crew and the people in your area. If you have to ask someone about this situation, then do just that. Why would I care when you are not only in a different state, but a different region of the country? Are my teams going to play you anytime soon? We are not talking about college football where teams play in different state on a regular even at the small college level. And even at that level I do not know many Referees that ask in this very situation and they are much more dismissive about the decision then I am.

Yes, I live in a universe that most here never would be around even to have this debate. You do not live here. You likely have not done much that I have done here. You probably do not work college ball on my crew or are on the supplemental list that I am on in another level. We have guys here that brag about not giving a measurement during a game, you think they really are going out of their way to debate if they are going to have a double foul in a situation we are discussing? And I am not the Referee on a regular basis, so I do not have to worry about it either way. I just think this is an easy replay with the information we were given and if you feel it has to be an issue, then make it one and ask the coach or the captain as many times as you like.

Let it go already. I do not have to be you to feel good about myself.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I do not ask on fouls where there is an option and the option is obvious.

PLAY:A 1/10, A20. Run by A goes to the A33 yard line. Holding foul by A66 at the A22. You actually get a captain and present the options on that?

I actually know officials that feel you should. So I would not be surprised if he is in that camp. And you know what, if that works for him I would not have a problem with it, even if I was working with him. Again, not a big deal if you ask me. If that makes him sleep at night, then so be it.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think there is a right or wrong here. I think is you do what works for you and your crew and the people in your area. If you have to ask someone about this situation, then do just that. Why would I care when you are not only in a different state, but a different region of the country? Are my teams going to play you anytime soon? We are not talking about college football where teams play in different state on a regular even at the small college level. And even at that level I do not know many Referees that ask in this very situation and they are much more dismissive about the decision then I am.

Yes, I live in a universe that most here never would be around even to have this debate. You do not live here. You likely have not done much that I have done here. You probably do not work college ball on my crew or are on the supplemental list that I am on in another level. We have guys here that brag about not giving a measurement during a game, you think they really are going out of their way to debate if they are going to have a double foul in a situation we are discussing? And I am not the Referee on a regular basis, so I do not have to worry about it either way. I just think this is an easy replay with the information we were given and if you feel it has to be an issue, then make it one and ask the coach or the captain as many times as you like.

Let it go already. I do not have to be you to feel good about myself.

Peace

You know, I'm all for not asking captains (at all, I usually ask the coaches from a distance if I can), but the difference between keeping the ball as B and making A punt again is far from obvious. Making this a double foul is far from obvious. Even if they get the ball at the 15 or 20, I'm asking the question. Many teams aren't fond of their punt return teams, etc. and would simply prefer taking the ball.

Also, I'd want the coach to know he had the option of keeping the ball and not give A another 4th down play. If I don't do that, I think I'm being negligent in my duties.

I'd ask in a college game, too.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I actually know officials that feel you should. So I would not be surprised if he is in that camp. And you know what, if that works for him I would not have a problem with it, even if I was working with him. Again, not a big deal if you ask me. If that makes him sleep at night, then so be it.

Peace

I think it hurts the crew, myself. Giving an option on something like that, IMO, shows that the referee (and by extension the crew) has no common sense and/or feel for the game.

Far different than the play in the OP. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is with him, is all. I know where yours is -- I disagree with it, but so what?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I think it hurts the crew, myself. Giving an option on something like that, IMO, shows that the referee (and by extension the crew) has no common sense and/or feel for the game.

Far different than the play in the OP. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is with him, is all. I know where yours is -- I disagree with it, but so what?

+100000000000

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

You know, I'm all for not asking captains (at all, I usually ask the coaches from a distance if I can), but the difference between keeping the ball as B and making A punt again is far from obvious. Making this a double foul is far from obvious. Even if they get the ball at the 15 or 20, I'm asking the question. Many teams aren't fond of their punt return teams, etc. and would simply prefer taking the ball.

Also, I'd want the coach to know he had the option of keeping the ball and not give A another 4th down play. If I don't do that, I think I'm being negligent in my duties.

I'd ask in a college game, too.

You know Rich, if I was on your crew in that situation, I would be OK with you asking. I honestly do not care either way.

Also this is a situation that if done right you would hardly have to ask. The wing or other officials should already get to the coach and tell them they can replay the down or they can take the ball with a penalty assessed. That should take 5 seconds to get that information and we would be moving at a quick pace. And I cannot think of many situations where the team would not just make it a double foul as they want to take their chances to get a better result then being on their side of the field at their 35 yard line. This to me is like asking when the FG angle might change after a false start or encroachment, there are times they can decline the yardage but we rarely ask. I am OK with what the crew is comfortable with. Just because I might have a personal view, that view does not override my crew.

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Rich

I do not ask on fouls where there is an option and the option is obvious.

PLAY:A 1/10, A20. Run by A goes to the A33 yard line. Holding foul by A66 at the A22. You actually get a captain and present the options on that?

No, and you quoted out of context.

Rut's contention was: "Also saying something is 'blatantly obvious' is very subjective, it always will be by definition."

If it is indeed "very subjective" (which I disagree with), then you should present options on every choice, which I also disagree with.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm just trying to figure out where the line is with him, is all.

Simple -- I don't ask on obvious choices. If there's any question, as in the OP, I ask.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

No, and you quoted out of context.

Rut's contention was: "Also saying something is 'blatantly obvious' is very subjective, it always will be by definition."

If it is indeed "very subjective" (which I disagree with), then you should present options on every choice, which I also disagree with.

Well considering that you and I do not agree on this situation and your quote of the rule caused an issue with someone else, these things are clearly are not seen in the same light. So I stand by my contention that this is very subjective and changes based on who is involved or is looking at the circumstances. If it was objective, then there would not be at all a debate.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CT1

No, and you quoted out of context.

Rut's contention was: "Also saying something is 'blatantly obvious' is very subjective, it always will be by definition."

If it is indeed "very subjective" (which I disagree with), then you should present options on every choice, which I also disagree with.

The mere fact that there are plays (including this one) where one quality official finds it obvious, and another quality official doesn't, makes this, by definition, VERY SUBJECTIVE.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

So by "that situation" you meant double fouls in general, not this situation?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So by "that situation" you meant double fouls in general, not this situation?

I will say it this way. Last night at one of my associations met, the topic was Penalty Enforcement. This association is geared towards HS and college officials and many of the presenters or people in the room work D1 football and many crew chiefs.

When the issue of double fouls came up, no one gave any caveats to how or when, they said in both the HS and college presentations, "We do not need to talk to anyone." Now this specific situation was not mentioned, but this situation is not a "clean hands" situation and that is the prevailing attitude here. If that is not what guys where you are do it, once again I am fine with that. But where I live, most are not making a big stink over asking coaches in these kinds of situation. I have been in this area and apart of this particular association (I belong to others as well) for over 10 years and listened to guys who I see on TV both in college and the NFL speak on what they do and never have I heard anyone make a caveat for a punt where R might decline the penalty just because they get the ball. If it is a double foul by rule, we replay the down. And that is why I said what the down and distance might be could factor in, because replaying the down might realistically give K the opportunity to run a play from scrimmage and get a first down. Never heard anyone suggest, "Well I do not know what the coach thinks about his returner" as a factor to replaying the down. Then again I am not a Referee on a regular basis anymore but when I was no one said "boo" when we would replay the down in a similar situation. I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to complain about in the first place. If they want to keep the ball, they better make more noise that is a possibility.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Jeff ... I get your point on most double fouls. And your other point on clean-hands situations.

But I would ask on any double foul on a play involving COP like punt or kickoff returns where the result of the double foul is a rekick.