Wow! KCI

Robert Goodman · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have a classic double foul. Usually you do not ask both teams their options in that situation.

Why not, when the choice is not obvious? And it doesn't look obvious in this situation.

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Why not, when the choice is not obvious? And it doesn't look obvious in this situation.

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

Peace

bisonlj · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

Peace

In this instance R's choices:

Decline the KCI to keep the ball. Enforce R's invalid signal from the spot of the foul (behind basic spot). R's ball 1/10 at the R35
Accept the KCI resulting in a double foul. Replay the down from the K30.

Neither option is obvious so in this case I definitely think we should ask. Do you see the options differently or do you think 99% of R coaches will want a re-kick?

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 12:17pm

I think it really depends on the down and distance and the part of the game. It is not like having the ball is a big advantage at the 35 unless time is of the essence.

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over. Yes R gets the ball, but they are not in great field position where it is really much of a consideration IMO. If they were on the other 35, then I could see a different choice or possibility.

Peace

asdf · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 12:34pm

By giving the team the option to retain the ball, it actually presents them with the logical choice based on the circumstances surrounding the play.

Example...... (not related to the original play, which would be R's ball at the 35 or replay the down)

"Coach, if you decline the penalty on K, you will have the ball at your own 15 yard line after we enforce the penalty against you....." (starting deep in his own territory will probably persuade him to replay the down)

"Coach, if you decline the penalty on K, you will have the ball at the 50 yard line after we enforce the penalty against you...." (having the ball at the 50 will probably persuade him to decline K's penalty and start a drive at mid-field)

I don't want to be around when we don't offer an option, the replayed down ends up in a muffed kick and a recovery by K, and the coach finds out that we didn't give him the option to refuse K's foul.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 12:39pm

But you act like them getting the ball is some great accomplishment. It was a punt, not a play where they got the ball with "clean hands." They are going to get another chance to get the ball back. And being closer then their own 35 is a real possibility in HS football in this situation if I am imagining where the ball would likely be kicked from.

Peace

MD Longhorn · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:44pm

I agree with asdf. I would also add that the assumption by Jeff that most would take the replay without much thought is likely faulty. I'd assume the opposite in fact. Unless declining the foul and keeping the ball puts the team in a disadvantageous situation (like the aforementioned "own 14"), MOST coaches are going to take the ball without a rekick. MOST coaches see the punt return as a risky play already - risky enough that they're going to keep the ball without a rekick most of the time. (Consider before numerous enforcement changes about 8 years back, how often coaches declined penalties against teams that were kicking off, solely because they'd just rather have the ball and be done with the return play rather than rekicking 5 yards back).

I agree that if an official were to simply set up to rekick - a lot of coaches will not know they had an option and think nothing of it. But I disagree that given that option it's a no-brainer that they would take the rekick.

asdf · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I agree with asdf. I would also add that the assumption by Jeff that most would take the replay without much thought is likely faulty. I'd assume the opposite in fact. Unless declining the foul and keeping the ball puts the team in a disadvantageous situation (like the aforementioned "own 14"), MOST coaches are going to take the ball without a rekick. MOST coaches see the punt return as a risky play already - risky enough that they're going to keep the ball without a rekick most of the time. (Consider before numerous enforcement changes about 8 years back, how often coaches declined penalties against teams that were kicking off, solely because they'd just rather have the ball and be done with the return play rather than rekicking 5 yards back).

I agree that if an official were to simply set up to rekick - a lot of coaches will not know they had an option and think nothing of it. But I disagree that given that option it's a no-brainer that they would take the rekick.

Absolutely...

We don't know if R is having issues with returns, (blocking, catching, fumbling, penalties, injury to players...etc) therefore we actually may be putting them at a greater disadvantage than accepting the ball at their own x-yard line...

Not our job in this situation.

CT1 · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over.

Then most Referees that you know (including you) are going against the rules, and asking for trouble that can be easily avoided.

Most Referees that I know (including me) give options unless the choice is blatantly obvious.

JRutledge · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1

Then most Referees that you know (including you) are going against the rules, and asking for trouble that can be easily avoided.

Most Referees that I know (including me) give options unless the choice is blatantly obvious.

What rule does is say we must ask no matter what? And do you ask every time we have a false start or other dead ball fouls? I know many that think crews are crazy to even ask in those situations. Now maybe there is a standard you want to use and I am fine with that, but not much to ask here IMO and not something I really care if you ask or not ask. Actually I think some are making a bigger deal out of the options.

Also saying something is "blatantly obvious" is very subjective, it always will be by definition. And getting the ball at the 35 on your side of the field is not something I see many coaches wanting to do. And when I see a coach get upset over this, it will be a first.

If we are going to replay 4th and 1 or 4 and 5 I have no problem with asking R. But if we are replaying 4th and 20 or 4th and 25, different story.

Peace

asdf · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:41pm

Blatantly Obvious.....

Tie game 15 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.
A's ball 4th and goal form B's 20 yard line.

While the ball is in the air on a forward pass, A81 commits offensive pass interference by pushing B34 to the ground in the end zone. After the push, A81 leaps to catch the ball, however, A81 does not maintain possession and drops the ball for an incomplete pass. The BJ, who threw the flag for the OPI informs the R of the foul and the result of the play which was an incomplete pass.

CT1 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What rule does is say we must ask no matter what?

10-1-1.

Quote:

And do you ask every time we have a false start or other dead ball fouls?

Not if there's no option.

Quote:

Also saying something is "blatantly obvious" is very subjective, it always will be by definition.

Then you should ask on EVERY foul where there's an option, shouldn't you?

Just admit you misspoke & let's move on.

MD Longhorn · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1

Most Referees that I know (including me) give options unless the choice is blatantly obvious.

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think Jeff agrees with that.

Where the two of you differ (and where I differ from Jeff) is whether THIS scenario is blatantly obvious.

JRutledge · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think Jeff agrees with that.

Where the two of you differ (and where I differ from Jeff) is whether THIS scenario is blatantly obvious.

I do.

And I think this is a typical internet officiating conversation. I have never had this much debate on my crew or with other officials in person. It is a double foul, not rocket science. And it is not blatant unless I know the down and distance and game situation.

Peace

Rich · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 10, 2013, 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it really depends on the down and distance and the part of the game. It is not like having the ball is a big advantage at the 35 unless time is of the essence.

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over. Yes R gets the ball, but they are not in great field position where it is really much of a consideration IMO. If they were on the other 35, then I could see a different choice or possibility.

Peace

Not me. When it comes to replaying a punt down, I'm definitely giving the coach the option of taking the ball, regardless of field location. I am going straight to the coach to give the options, though.