Wow! KCI

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not sure why you would give the option, ...

Why would you not give R an option?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

Why would you not give R an option?

You have a classic double foul. Usually you do not ask both teams their options in that situation.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have a classic double foul. Usually you do not ask both teams their options in that situation.

Why not, when the choice is not obvious? And it doesn't look obvious in this situation.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Why not, when the choice is not obvious? And it doesn't look obvious in this situation.

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

Peace

In this instance R's choices:

Decline the KCI to keep the ball. Enforce R's invalid signal from the spot of the foul (behind basic spot). R's ball 1/10 at the R35
Accept the KCI resulting in a double foul. Replay the down from the K30.

Neither option is obvious so in this case I definitely think we should ask. Do you see the options differently or do you think 99% of R coaches will want a re-kick?

[JRutledge]

I think it really depends on the down and distance and the part of the game. It is not like having the ball is a big advantage at the 35 unless time is of the essence.

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over. Yes R gets the ball, but they are not in great field position where it is really much of a consideration IMO. If they were on the other 35, then I could see a different choice or possibility.

Peace

[asdf]

By giving the team the option to retain the ball, it actually presents them with the logical choice based on the circumstances surrounding the play.

Example...... (not related to the original play, which would be R's ball at the 35 or replay the down)

"Coach, if you decline the penalty on K, you will have the ball at your own 15 yard line after we enforce the penalty against you....." (starting deep in his own territory will probably persuade him to replay the down)

"Coach, if you decline the penalty on K, you will have the ball at the 50 yard line after we enforce the penalty against you...." (having the ball at the 50 will probably persuade him to decline K's penalty and start a drive at mid-field)

I don't want to be around when we don't offer an option, the replayed down ends up in a muffed kick and a recovery by K, and the coach finds out that we didn't give him the option to refuse K's foul.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over.

Then most Referees that you know (including you) are going against the rules, and asking for trouble that can be easily avoided.

Most Referees that I know (including me) give options unless the choice is blatantly obvious.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it really depends on the down and distance and the part of the game. It is not like having the ball is a big advantage at the 35 unless time is of the essence.

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over. Yes R gets the ball, but they are not in great field position where it is really much of a consideration IMO. If they were on the other 35, then I could see a different choice or possibility.

Peace

Not me. When it comes to replaying a punt down, I'm definitely giving the coach the option of taking the ball, regardless of field location. I am going straight to the coach to give the options, though.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

So by "that situation" you meant double fouls in general, not this situation?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So by "that situation" you meant double fouls in general, not this situation?

I will say it this way. Last night at one of my associations met, the topic was Penalty Enforcement. This association is geared towards HS and college officials and many of the presenters or people in the room work D1 football and many crew chiefs.

When the issue of double fouls came up, no one gave any caveats to how or when, they said in both the HS and college presentations, "We do not need to talk to anyone." Now this specific situation was not mentioned, but this situation is not a "clean hands" situation and that is the prevailing attitude here. If that is not what guys where you are do it, once again I am fine with that. But where I live, most are not making a big stink over asking coaches in these kinds of situation. I have been in this area and apart of this particular association (I belong to others as well) for over 10 years and listened to guys who I see on TV both in college and the NFL speak on what they do and never have I heard anyone make a caveat for a punt where R might decline the penalty just because they get the ball. If it is a double foul by rule, we replay the down. And that is why I said what the down and distance might be could factor in, because replaying the down might realistically give K the opportunity to run a play from scrimmage and get a first down. Never heard anyone suggest, "Well I do not know what the coach thinks about his returner" as a factor to replaying the down. Then again I am not a Referee on a regular basis anymore but when I was no one said "boo" when we would replay the down in a similar situation. I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to complain about in the first place. If they want to keep the ball, they better make more noise that is a possibility.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Jeff ... I get your point on most double fouls. And your other point on clean-hands situations.

But I would ask on any double foul on a play involving COP like punt or kickoff returns where the result of the double foul is a rekick.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When the issue of double fouls came up, no one gave any caveats to how or when, they said in both the HS and college presentations, "We do not need to talk to anyone."

In general, that is going to be true.

• With fouls by both teams where the team last in possession fouled before gaining possession, there are no options at all. The fouls automatically offset and the down is replayed.
  
• If Team B got the ball with clean hands, they are going to want it so them declining Team A's foul is obvious. No need to ask here.

Now this specific situation was not mentioned, but this situation is not a "clean hands" situation and that is the prevailing attitude here.

This specific situation is where clean hands is disregarded due to B's foul being PSK. It's a fairly specific situation and the only one involving fouls by both teams where I can think we should ask. It's rare and doesn't happen often. I don't think a choice is obvious here. Team B may want to replay the down and see if their return is better. Team B may be happy to have the ball back and not care about the penalty being enforced against them.

And that is why I said what the down and distance might be could factor in, because replaying the down might realistically give K the opportunity to run a play from scrimmage and get a first down.

Good point and it may be reason enough that Team B decides they'll take the play and the ball.

I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to complain about in the first place. If they want to keep the ball, they better make more noise that is a possibility.

I certainly agree coaches need to know the rules but I also think we should present options when appropriate. This is one of those regional things, here we have to care quite a bit about what the coaches complain about. If they have the perception that we aren't doing a good job, we are going to lose games as a crew.

Obviously not as big of an issue in your area. Here the coach's opinion is king.