dead ball contact

[Robert Goodman]

In scrimmage formation, wingback A1, facing the ball, makes a quick, jerky movement causing B1 to contact him in the back below the waist, but not in a way that you'd consider unnecessary roughness. Do you flag for clipping?

[jTheUmp]

Assuming this all happens prior to the snap:
False Start on A1.
Nothing on B1 unless the contact rises to the level of UNR (although my "UNR Radar" would be on a more sensitive setting with contact from behind and below the waist)

[maven]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

In scrimmage formation, wingback A1, facing the ball, makes a quick, jerky movement causing B1 to contact him in the back below the waist, but not in a way that you'd consider unnecessary roughness. Do you flag for clipping?

No. Clipping, like IBB, is called when a player approaches from the back, not when the blocked player suddenly spins at the last second.

If the contact occurs near the snap, then I would handle it as jTheUmp would.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Assuming this all happens prior to the snap:
False Start on A1.
Nothing on B1 unless the contact rises to the level of UNR (although my "UNR Radar" would be on a more sensitive setting with contact from behind and below the waist)

So "dead ball clipping" is like "dead ball holding", even though the rule against clipping is more a safety rule than a tactical one?

[maven]

Even if it happens during a dead ball, it's not clipping.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by maven

No. Clipping, like IBB, is called when a player approaches from the back, not when the blocked player suddenly spins at the last second.

That's why I wrote that A1 was facing the ball, to say that he hadn't just turned. I meant it to be a clear case of clipping where clipping would be illegal if the ball were live, but not a case of unnecessary roughness if the ball were live. I could've made it BBW, but I wanted a case that'd be more or less the same under all major codes.

The scenario I wanted to set up was where B1 thought the ball was being put in play, which means that if the ball had actually been put in play, B1 was going to clip an opponent, albeit probably not deliberately.

This is interesting to me because B1 is saved from the clipping penalty because the ball is dead, even though the rule against clipping was adopted very long ago not because of what was thought to be an unfair tactical advantage to be gained by it, but to protect anterior cruciate knee ligaments. It's rather like the bit about the horse collar tackle that wasn't completed until after the player being tackled scored a TD, and that therefore wasn't penalized because it didn't apply if the ball was already dead.

[afsst]

You have to judge B1's contact, both in timing and severity. If everyone else is standing still, and B1 takes a free shot, I'm going to penalize him for a Personal Foul. If lots of kids moved on A1's jerk, then I may give a little more grace. You can usually tell in these cases when a player is just trying to tee off on an opponent, and I'd err on the side of safety and flagging the defender.

[CT1]

A1 committed a false start that caused B1's contact? Tough titty. Remember the snap count next time.

[ajmc]

You can't presume that the picture you have in your mind, comes across as you see it when converted to written form. Not so much an issue of live ball/dead ball as the way ir read, the jerky motion of A was contributary to where the contact was made by B, which in and of itself leads most of us away from a flag.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

the way ir read, the jerky motion of A was contributary to where the contact was made by B,

I can understand why the presence of quick and jerky motion could affect whether contact was made, but not where.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I can understand why the presence of quick and jerky motion could affect whether contact was made, but not where.

If the "quick and jerky movement was judged to be A turning his back, so as to create the illusions of B fouling, does it really matter where such action took place?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If the "quick and jerky movement was judged to be A turning his back, so as to create the illusions of B fouling, does it really matter where such action took place?

No, I meant where on A's body the contact took place. And if A was already facing the ball, his back was already turned to a B player outside of him.

[HLin NC]

It's either a false start and or personal foul and/or nothing, based on the covering official(s) judgment.

Clipping and/or BIB is a live ball foul, this is dead ball action.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

It's either a false start and or personal foul and/or nothing, based on the covering official(s) judgment.

Clipping and/or BIB is a live ball foul, this is dead ball action.

What if we turn the sequence of events around and make it contact shortly after a ball becomes dead? Is it still a choice of UR or nothing, or can you call illegal BBW or clipping?

How about more extreme circumstances, where the ball becomes dead (or was never live when it appeared to be) but most of the players & officials don't realize it, and what would be illegal BBW or clipping occurs during an apparent play which is later determined to have been a dead ball interval?

[HLin NC]

What part of dead ball foul vs. live ball foul are you not grasping here? It is NOT going to be a clip.

What if space aliens invaded at the snap? Zombies rise from old graves buried beneath the field? Elvis and the marching band think its halftime and start to perform?

Its still a dead ball foul, no matter the fantasy.