Error on 2014 NFHS test

[WestCoaster]

Just finished taking this year's exam. There was a multiple choice question for which the correct answer was not present. The question was:

A's ball first and ten from their own 10. Quarterback drops back into the end zone to pass and is tackled in the end zone by his facemask and fumbles. The ball rolls out of bounds at the 5 yard line. After penalty enforcement give down distance and yard line.

This play is specifically covered in rule 10-4-7, which states that the goal line is the basic spot. Penalize 15 yards from the goal line to the 15, replay first down, so it's first and 5. That is not one of the choices.

I suspect whoever wrote the question was using case play 10.3.1 Situation C as his correct answer. However this case ruling is clearly in error. Rule 10.3 only defines a loose ball play. Had this play happened in the field of play, then it would be a loose ball play penalized from the previous spot. But this is a special case where the loose ball originates from the end zone and is clearly spelled out it rule 10-4-7.

According to 10.3.1 C it should be first and ten from the 25. This would be an incorrect enforcement of the rules.

Comments from the more erudite among us?

[HLin NC]

Not an error. Your ruling applies if there was a safety, touchback, or a change of possession. With no change of possession, it is enforced as loose ball play as indicated.

It is convoluted and even Reddings struggles to explain it.

[Reffing Rev.]

Whether the loose ball originates in the field of play or the end zone has no effect...

Basics of penalty enforcement require us to know where the basic spot is and that requires us to know whether it is a loose ball or running play. The "exceptions" move the basic spot to the goal line when the basic spot would be behind/beyond.

The play in question is a loose ball play (fumble behind the LOS) the basic spot is the previous spot. Had there not been a fumble, then running play, basic spot is end of the run which was in the end zone, therefore the basic spot would be the goal line for fouls against the defense.

[Rich]

As said, not an error. Basic enforcement principle: Loose ball play (run prior to a fumble), basic spot previous spot, foul's on B.

We could argue whether it exposes a poor enforcement principle (end of run on foul where the run ends behind the LOS), but that's a whole 'nother argument. Tackled by the mask in the end zone - basic spot's the goal line, A 1/5 at the A15. Fumbles it? A 1/10 at the A25.

I found this test to be the most straightforward NFHS test I've taken in years.

[WestCoaster]

Here is rule 10-4-7: --- Quote ---The basic spot is the goal line for fouls, which are committed during running plays by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball across its own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

All conditions in my example play are listed in this rule. A run ending in the end zone followed by a loose ball. Penalty by B while A in possession. A forced the ball into the end zone. How can you say this rule does not apply. This rule was written for exactly this play. This rule says nothing about a change of possession. Yes this is a loose ball play. Rule 10-4-7 says that in this specific set of circumstances the goal line is the basic spot.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by WestCoaster

A run ending in the end zone followed by a loose ball.

Which means this is not a running play, it is a loose ball play. A fumble behind the LOS will result in all preceding action being a part of the loose ball play.

Same as if a QB runs behind the LOS and then throws a forward pass, all action before the pass is a part of the same loose ball play.

Let's take a look at Rule 2:

2-33-1

ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:

a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.

b. A legal forward pass.

c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.

Since you have a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot.

[WestCoaster]

Rule 10-4-7 clearly states that if you run the ball into the end zone, get fouled by B, then fumble in the end zone the basic spot is the goal line. This is exactly what happened in this play, is it not? I'm not questioning that this is a loose ball play! It is. But all the requirements of rule 10-4-7 have been met. The rule clearly states in THIS situation the basic spot for this foul is the goal line. What am I missing? What about rule 10-4-7 does not apply here? All conditions of this rule have been met. I'm clear on what is a loose ball play. This one example seems an exception to previous spot enforcement. Read the rule carefully and tell me how the play in this example is different.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by WestCoaster

Rule 10-4-7 clearly states that if you run the ball into the end zone, get fouled by B, then fumble in the end zone the basic spot is the goal line. This is exactly what happened in this play, is it not? I'm not questioning that this is a loose ball play! It is. But all the requirements of rule 10-4-7 have been met. The rule clearly states in THIS situation the basic spot for this foul is the goal line. What am I missing? What about rule 10-4-7 does not apply here? All conditions of this rule have been met. I'm clear on what is a loose ball play. This one example seems an exception to previous spot enforcement. Read the rule carefully and tell me how the play in this example is different.

A foul happens during a dead ball, a running play, or a loose ball play.

The key to understanding running play/loose ball play is there can only be one loose ball play during a down and it starts with the snap. There can be multiple running plays though. Once the QB fumbled, everthing from the snap to when the ball is recovered or becomes dead is a loose ball play. So this fumble happened during a loose ball play. The rule you are quoting doesn't apply.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by WestCoaster

Rule 10-4-7 clearly states that if you run the ball into the end zone, get fouled by B, then fumble in the end zone the basic spot is the goal line. This is exactly what happened in this play, is it not? I'm not questioning that this is a loose ball play! It is. But all the requirements of rule 10-4-7 have been met. The rule clearly states in THIS situation the basic spot for this foul is the goal line. What am I missing? What about rule 10-4-7 does not apply here? All conditions of this rule have been met. I'm clear on what is a loose ball play. This one example seems an exception to previous spot enforcement. Read the rule carefully and tell me how the play in this example is different.

I think you're hung up by the phrase "and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball", because you're wondering how that could occur on any play without converting it to a loose ball play, so you assume this provision supersedes its classif'n as a loose ball play. I'm guessing the drafters forgot to reconcile provisions when a change was made.

[JRutledge]

So glad we do not take this anymore.

Peace

[ODJ]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So glad we do not take this anymore.

Peace

Really?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ODJ

Really?

Our state is not a full member of the National Federation, which means they do not pay the insurance dues for the officials for the state. Our state produces our own test which is much shorter and multiple choice. It has been that way for probably 5 or 6 years now. Our test is usually much more common sense and asks about how you apply the rules, not just trying to test your rulebook language knowledge or complete understanding for one word in a question.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by WestCoaster

Here is rule 10-4-7: --- Quote ---The basic spot is the goal line for fouls, which are committed during running plays by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball across its own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

All conditions in my example play are listed in this rule. A run ending in the end zone followed by a loose ball. Penalty by B while A in possession. A forced the ball into the end zone. How can you say this rule does not apply. This rule was written for exactly this play. This rule says nothing about a change of possession. Yes this is a loose ball play. Rule 10-4-7 says that in this specific set of circumstances the goal line is the basic spot.

It's not a running play. It's a loose ball play, by definition. QED.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Our state is not a full member of the National Federation, which means they do not pay the insurance dues for the officials for the state. Our state produces our own test which is much shorter and multiple choice. It has been that way for probably 5 or 6 years now. Our test is usually much more common sense and asks about how you apply the rules, not just trying to test your rulebook language knowledge or complete understanding for one word in a question.

Peace

Jeff, normally I'm with you, but in this case:

(1) The test was as straight-forward as any I've ever taken. I took 30 minutes and scored 100.

(2) The question in this thread is a GREAT practical application question. It is testing the concept of running play and loose ball play.

--------------------

ART. 7 . . . The basic spot is the goal line for fouls, which are committed during running plays by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball across its own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

-----

10-4-7 doesn't apply in this play. You can stop reading the second you get to "running play" since it's not a running play.

[Reffing Rev.]

en?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Our state is not a full member of the National Federation, which means they do not pay the insurance dues for the officials for the state. Our state produces our own test which is much shorter and multiple choice. It has been that way for probably 5 or 6 years now. Our test is usually much more common sense and asks about how you apply the rules, not just trying to test your rulebook language knowledge or complete understanding for one word in a question.

Peace

I used to live in the land of Lincoln and may move back there some day...I'm curious did your ihsa registration costs go down? How much more do you pay for liability?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

en?

I used to live in the land of Lincoln and may move back there some day...I'm curious did your ihsa registration costs go down? How much more do you pay for liability?

Illinois decided they were going not going to honor bordering state reciprocity at the same time. That's when I decided to stop working the occasional basketball game in Illinois.