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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:00pm
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Continuation of Scoring Play

hey, I know its sometimes difficult to answer the "why" question, but I'm going tojump in anyways..... If a ball carrier is flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct on the field of play during a run. and then after the flag is thrown, he continues running down the field and then into the end zone. why do the rules allow the touchdown, even though the ball carrier committed the infraction during the play and before the touchdown? And is this the only penalty in the books where an offensive player can commit a penalty before the touchdown is scored, yet the touchdown counts anyway? thanks.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:18pm
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That isn't true under NCAA rules (and by extension, HS games in Texas/Massachusetts).

In other rule sets, unsportsmanlike fouls are live ball fouls enforced as dead ball fouls. Why do they go that route especially with NFHS rules? I couldn't answer.
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Last edited by APG; Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 12:20pm.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:18pm
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Why? Because that's the rule. Specifically, NFHS 10-4-5-a:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFHS 10-4-5
ART. 5 . . . The basic spot is the succeeding spot:

a. For an unsportsmanlike foul.

b. For a dead-ball foul.

c. For a nonplayer foul.

d. When the final result is a touchback.

NOTE: The succeeding spot may, at the option of the offended team, be the subsequent kickoff as in 8-2-2, 8-2-3, 8-2-4 and 8-2-5.
The succeeding spot in this case can be either the try or on the subsequent kickoff (if there is going to be a subsequent kickoff).


NCAA used to be the same way until a couple of years ago... now in NCAA, UNS fouls are enforced as live-ball fouls.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:20pm
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thanks. so, for example, if the ball carrier begins taunting on the 10 yard line on his way into the end zone, then the play should be blown dead on the 10 yard line, and the 15 yard penalty enforced from the 10? Thanks.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:28pm
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Originally Posted by Rickwill View Post
thanks. so, for example, if the ball carrier begins taunting on the 10 yard line on his way into the end zone, then the play should be blown dead on the 10 yard line, and the 15 yard penalty enforced from the 10? Thanks.
(FED) Completely wrong. The ball remains live, and the penalty will be assessed on either the XP try or ensuing kickoff, at the option of the defense.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:28pm
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Are you talking about FED rules, or NCAA rules?

In either case, we do not "blow the play dead" at the 10 yard line as you suggest. A foul NEVER causes the ball to become dead. The result of the play is a touchdown, with an Unsportsmanlike Conduct foul at the B 10.

Here's where things change depending on ruleset.

NFHS:
Touchdown stands, Team B can take the 15-yard penalty on the try or on the subsequent kickoff (see the rule I posted previously).

NCAA:
Live-ball UNS at the 10-yard line. If Team B accepts the penalty (and they will), basic spot is the 10-yard line. Next snap will be at the B 25, 1st and 10 if the 25 is beyond the line-to-gain of the previous play, otherwise replay the previous down.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:29pm
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thanks, you answered my confusion, that it depends on which Rule Set in this case.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp View Post
A foul NEVER causes the ball to become dead.
Quick nitpick. There are 2 fouls in NCAA football that do -- an illegal kick (from beyond the line of scrimmage) and a return kick.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickwill View Post
thanks, you answered my confusion, that it depends on which Rule Set in this case.
And for completeness sake, in the NFL, an unsportsmanlike penalty like in the situation you presented, the penalty would be enforced on the kickoff.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 01:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
And for completeness sake, in the NFL, an unsportsmanlike penalty like in the situation you presented, the penalty would be enforced on the kickoff.
That would imply they actually frown upon taunting in the NFL, which is not the case, so this is a moot point
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 02:39pm
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Originally Posted by PSU213 View Post
That would imply they actually frown upon taunting in the NFL, which is not the case, so this is a moot point
What the NFHS/NCAA consider taunting and what the NFL considers taunting are two different things.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 03:15pm
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Nobody answered his original question as to why this foul is enforced this way. I believe it is because the runner did not gain an advantage with the foul and did not contact an opponent when committing the foul. Philosophically most fouls allow the offense to gain an advantage by fouling (block in the back, holding, chop block, etc.) so you only award them the yardage they gained to the foul and penalize from there. That is an over-generalization but most penalty enforcement follows that logic.

The reason the NCAA changed their rule last year to consider UNS a live ball enforcement like any other live ball foul was because they felt it was punitive enough to eliminate the taunting and such before a score. I would have to say they were wildly successful because you rarely seeing any kind of celebration before the runner gets to the end zone. Now if they could do the same thing with these helmets popping off.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 03:36pm
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thanks, your reasoning for why in some rule sets the touchdown is still allowed makes alot of sense.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 03:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
What the NFHS/NCAA consider taunting and what the NFL considers taunting are two different things.
I know. I was specifically addressing the post re: NFL rules.
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Old Wed Oct 17, 2012, 10:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj View Post
Nobody answered his original question as to why this foul is enforced this way. I believe it is because the runner did not gain an advantage with the foul and did not contact an opponent when committing the foul. Philosophically most fouls allow the offense to gain an advantage by fouling (block in the back, holding, chop block, etc.) so you only award them the yardage they gained to the foul and penalize from there. That is an over-generalization but most penalty enforcement follows that logic.
I think that's part of the reason. Another part may be that for acts such as taunting, it may be difficult to determine the spot of the foul. So, for instance, a player running down the field flips the bird to someone. Is the spot of the foul where he was when he extended the finger, when he extended his arm enough to make it noticeable, or when the person he intended the message for noticed?
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