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-   -   take a knee? (https://forum.officiating.com/football/92432-take-knee.html)

asdf Mon Sep 17, 2012 05:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchamp (Post 854898)
If he was only up 10 points at the half, then he's smart to try to pad his lead. It doesn't take long for those ten points to evaporate, especially if you're kicking to start the 3rd.

Victory formation started as a way for the offense to eliminate as much as possible the risk of losing due to a fumble when they don't need the yardage to win the game. "Taking a knee" at halftime is completely discretionary and should NEVER be assumed. In the NFL, "taking a knee" should be afforded the same opportunities as any other play.

I can buy protecting kids in HS, but when we're talking about millionaires with incredible athletic prowess, don't just let them play, MAKE them play.
This happened at the end of the game.

Bush league for taking two knees then trying to throw a TD pass up 10 points with 30 seconds to go. (Even worse was the fact that DPI was called in the EZ and the Eagles scored the TD on the next play)

A common theme seems to be emerging here. Millionaires.....

There's a reason why they are millionaires. There's a reason why the teams in the league have accepted the practice of taking the knee with no resistance.

You don't like them being millionaires, that's your hang up.

The best line I heard out of all this was that "when guys bring stuff from the college game to the pro game, the usually end up back in the college game"

How true....

jchamp Mon Sep 17, 2012 05:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf (Post 854907)
This happened at the end of the game.
I wasn't aware of the reference. The described case is pretty unsporting--an attempt to run up the numbers.
Quote:
A common theme seems to be emerging here. Millionaires.....

There's a reason why they are millionaires. There's a reason why the teams in the league have accepted the practice of taking the knee with no resistance.

You don't like them being millionaires, that's your hang up.
I have no problem with them being millionaires. I've contributed a small share to making them millionaires and did so gladly in order to appreciate the entertainment they provide.
But don't forget the second part of that statement--incredible athletes. In the NFL, they are, indeed, professional entertainers. I pay my money to see professional entertainers. In other words, "Dance, monkey! Dance!"
When I go to a movie, I expect the theater to run the film until the credits end, and not stop it just before the climax.
When I go to a concert, I expect that the musician will play his complete set, and not suddenly stop 30 seconds into his closing song.
When I go to a PROFESSIONAL* football game, I expect players to play their hearts out until there is no further doubt as to the outcome. Anything less is robbing the fans of the entertainment which they have already paid to see.

*College is a mixed case--some places it's almost professional whereas others it's definitely amateur. High school: Let's just have fun, boys!

asdf Tue Sep 18, 2012 05:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchamp (Post 854913)
I wasn't aware of the reference. The described case is pretty unsporting--an attempt to run up the numbers.


I have no problem with them being millionaires. I've contributed a small share to making them millionaires and did so gladly in order to appreciate the entertainment they provide.
But don't forget the second part of that statement--incredible athletes. In the NFL, they are, indeed, professional entertainers. I pay my money to see professional entertainers. In other words, "Dance, monkey! Dance!"
When I go to a movie, I expect the theater to run the film until the credits end, and not stop it just before the climax.
When I go to a concert, I expect that the musician will play his complete set, and not suddenly stop 30 seconds into his closing song.
When I go to a PROFESSIONAL* football game, I expect players to play their hearts out until there is no further doubt as to the outcome. Anything less is robbing the fans of the entertainment which they have already paid to see.

*College is a mixed case--some places it's almost professional whereas others it's definitely amateur. High school: Let's just have fun, boys!
Then you shold be howling just as loud when a team, either ahead, behind or losing, takes a knee just before the half.

BigBaldGuy Tue Sep 18, 2012 06:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf (Post 854887)
Are you talking about the time he took two knees then threw a long pass while up 30-20?

Just as classy.....
I would find a holding penalty on this play...:)

waltjp Tue Sep 18, 2012 06:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf (Post 854954)
Then you shold be howling just as loud when a team, either ahead, behind or losing, takes a knee just before the half.
Why? You're suggestion is illogical. Nobody was howling at teams taking a knee. The noise is coming from those who are offended that a team saw time remaining on the clock and didn't concede the game.

asdf Tue Sep 18, 2012 08:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 854960)
Why? You're suggestion is illogical. Nobody was howling at teams taking a knee.
Jchamp is....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jchamp (Post 854913)
When I go to a PROFESSIONAL* football game, I expect players to play their hearts out until there is no further doubt as to the outcome. Anything less is robbing the fans of the entertainment which they have already paid to see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 854960)
The noise is coming from those who are offended that a team saw time remaining on the clock and didn't concede the game.
The noise is because, the team ahead, followed long accepted protocol and informed the opponent that they were taking a knee. The team behind decided without warning, that they were ignoring said accepted protocol and put their opponent in jeopardy of injury.

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 18, 2012 09:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf (Post 854974)
Jchamp is....
No, I don't think he is. He's not upset at the offense taking a knee... he's against the defense giving up.

Quote:
The team behind decided without warning, that they were ignoring said accepted protocol and put their opponent in jeopardy of injury.
Without warning? Did you watch the game? Did you see the way the defense lined up? I was watching, and I knew something was up.

asdf Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 854985)
No, I don't think he is. He's not upset at the offense taking a knee... he's against the defense giving up.

Without warning? Did you watch the game? Did you see the way the defense lined up? I was watching, and I knew something was up.
My father-in-law was on the sidelines. It was communicated to the officials and the Bucs that the knee was coming.

There was more than one Buc player that apologized to Manning.

jchamp Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 854985)
No, I don't think he is. He's not upset at the offense taking a knee... he's against the defense giving up.
That's correct. "Taking a knee" is an acceptable strategic option that is always available to the offense.

"Giving up" is the concession of defeat, and is never an option for any NFL player or fan, unless there is no chance of victory (e.g., down 2+ scores; less than 30 seconds).

We didn't give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor! :)

MD Longhorn Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf (Post 854986)
My father-in-law was on the sidelines. It was communicated to the officials and the Bucs that the knee was coming.
Congrats to your father in law. Relevance?

It was obvious to anyone watching that TB's defense was not just loitering near the line like they often do. They were lined up as if to charge.

asdf Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchamp (Post 854994)
That's correct. "Taking a knee" is an acceptable strategic option that is always available to the offense.

"Giving up" is the concession of defeat, and is never an option for any NFL player or fan, unless there is no chance of victory (e.g., down 2+ scores; less than 30 seconds).

We didn't give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor! :)
Maybe from a fan's (your?) point of view. (until your QB blows out an ACL on the last play ;))

The indisputable fact reamains that regardless if you or I like or don't like it, this went against protocol.

It's also not going to change. The reason ???.....

There's a far greater risk of injury to a star play than the chance that the offense will blow the snap.

waltjp Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:49am
On average, each teams has about 60-70 snaps per game. Why would you be upset that a defense plays each one of them like they mean something?

We're not talking about a 14 point deficit with 30 seconds remaining. This was a 7 point game. As long as there's time on the clock the Bucs still had a chance.

How about this, Giants, block like you mean it. Play like the game hasn't ended yet and protect your quarterback. And if you can't do that then get your QB out of there and put in the backup.

And I don't want to hear the crap about how someone might get hurt on the final play. There are inherent risks to the game. If you don't want to assume those risks then take up tennis.

asdf Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 854999)
Congrats to your father in law. Relevance?

It was obvious to anyone watching that TB's defense was not just loitering near the line like they often do. They were lined up as if to charge.
Relevance ?? You asked if I saw the game. I gave you someone who was on the sidelines that heard what is repeated around the league in this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 854999)
They were lined up as if to charge.
After they were told the knee was coming....that's what the problem is...

asdf Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 855005)
On average, each teams has about 60-70 snaps per game. Why would you be upset that a defense plays each one of them like they mean something?

We're not talking about a 14 point deficit with 30 seconds remaining. This was a 7 point game. As long as there's time on the clock the Bucs still had a chance.

How about this, Giants, block like you mean it. Play like the game hasn't ended yet and protect your quarterback. And if you can't do that then get your QB out of there and put in the backup.

And I don't want to hear the crap about how someone might get hurt on the final play. There are inherent risks to the game. If you don't want to assume those risks then take up tennis.
That's a fanboy response. You don't have millions invested. You don't have your livehood at stake like the players do. (go spend some time with a former OL, DL, or LB and watch them struggle just to sit down. They'll tell you what getting hurt on a meaningless down is all about)

Show me one situation around the league where a team took a knee just before halftime and the opponent blew it up....

You can't. Because that's not how the game's played.

You don't like it, come up with the skills to get signed to play in this arena and change the game so the fans won't be 'cheated" out of their "entertainment value".

Until then........feel free to tell me how it is fromn a fan's point of view....

I'll continue to give you the player's side....

maven Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 855005)
How about this, Giants, block like you mean it. Play like the game hasn't ended yet and protect your quarterback. And if you can't do that then get your QB out of there and put in the backup.
I think they got that memo this week.


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