snap over punters head----safety?

[splitveer]

We got into the discussion that there might be a penalty if our punter grabbed the ball and threw it out of the end zone. I do not know the rule so that is why I am here. Could that be a possibility of HOW the punter got the ball out of the endzone to take a safety where it might be a penalty.

[Altor]

Last year, I witnessed scenario a) in an NCAA D3 game. The referee threw the flag for the illegal kick, which on that play didn't matter because the end result was the same...safety.

The only reason I mention it is because I would think that if the defense were to be penalized during the down as well, the illegal kick would have created an offsetting penalty situation instead of yardage (and possibly a first down) for the kicking team.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by splitveer

We got into the discussion that there might be a penalty if our punter grabbed the ball and threw it out of the end zone. I do not know the rule so that is why I am here. Could that be a possibility of HOW the punter got the ball out of the endzone to take a safety where it might be a penalty.

There are plenty - the enforcement of all of which is ... a safety. Of course, they could decline the penalty, which would result in ... a safety.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by splitveer

We got into the discussion that there might be a penalty if our punter grabbed the ball and threw it out of the end zone. I do not know the rule so that is why I am here. Could that be a possibility of HOW the punter got the ball out of the endzone to take a safety where it might be a penalty.

Under NFHS rules, these are all a safety because:

1. A forced the ball across the goal line (the snap), and
2. The ball subsequently became dead in the EZ (never reentered the field of play).

The fact that some of the causes of 2 might also be fouls in the EZ is a redundant cause of a safety.

[Robert Goodman]

It's only Canadian football where it comes out different in case a, but not as a result of a penalty since it's not illegal. However, it leaves the other team with options so you'd be better off there by killing the ball in your possession or throwing it out.

[Texas Aggie]

Under NCAA rules, all 3 result in a safety. Technically, A and B are illegal and should be flagged, however, the result of the penalty is the same.

The interesting thing is that these fouls have loss of down penalties. So if they occurred on the 1 yard line rather than the end zone on 4th down, Team B could accept the penalty rather than the safety and put the ball in play. This is why the flag needs to be thrown -- to illustrate the foul occurred in the end zone rather than the field of play, in case its close.

On the other hand, don't give the defense a cheap 1 yard line possession. If you can put this in the end zone and give them a safety, do so. If it happens at the 4, there's nothing you can do other than put the flag there.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Under NCAA rules, all 3 result in a safety. Technically, A and B are illegal and should be flagged, however, the result of the penalty is the same.

The interesting thing is that these fouls have loss of down penalties. So if they occurred on the 1 yard line rather than the end zone on 4th down, Team B could accept the penalty rather than the safety and put the ball in play. This is why the flag needs to be thrown -- to illustrate the foul occurred in the end zone rather than the field of play, in case its close.

On the other hand, don't give the defense a cheap 1 yard line possession. If you can put this in the end zone and give them a safety, do so.

I can understand that if you're actually in doubt as to where the kicking or batting occurred, but not if you actually saw it in the field of play. Rather than negligently kicking or batting the ball, the team A player may have done so to prevent a B recovery when the A player was not in position to make the recovery first, so why allow them to benefit by the illegal play?

[MD Longhorn]

Robert - I believe the point was not to lie, but if you don't KNOW, to err on the side of safety. Consider the coverage on this play, you have ONE official in position for this, and it's possible, due to the nature of the play, that he doesn't have a perfect down-the-line angle that you would on nearly any other goal line play. (Even more so with only 3 officials). You're right that if you see the ball clearly on the one, and it's clear that the INTENT of the player was to commit an illegal act to avoid the easy TD, you have to penalize it.