Unintentional Forward Pass Beyond LOS

[mbyron]

NFHS 2-31:

ART. 2 . . . A forward pass is a pass thrown with its initial direction toward the
opponent’s end line.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

NFHS 2-31:

ART. 2 . . . A forward pass is a pass thrown with its initial direction toward the
opponent’s end line.

The important part for this discussion is not that, but the "NOTE" that follows immediately afterward. However...

"NOTE: Prior to releasing the ball on a pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact."

...notice that it says "if", not "if and only if". That seems to allow for the possibility of its being a forward pass even if the arm wasn't moving forward. Then you're thrown back on 2-31-1&2, which leave it arguable as to exactly when a pass begins in Fed rules. It says, "In a pass, the ball travels in flight." However, it's not clear whether that's just a requirement for there having been a pass or defines the entire extent of the pass. If it defines the entire extent of the pass, then the movement of the ball in the passer's hand is not part of the pass and so doesn't determine its initial direction. If, however, it just determines that a pass has occurred, then with the wording "throwing the ball" it is at least arguable that the motion of the ball in the passer's hand is its initial direction.

[JRutledge]

Robert,

This is clear to actual officials because that is how it has been called and the interpretation for years. Others like yourself might want to find nits in the information and not understand why these interpretations are the way they are, but it is clear that we do not determine (also based on what other codes do) that we judge this by the movement of the arm. It is not our job to figure out if there is a pump fake or a pass when a player is hit. That is also why you hear things like "empty hand" when someone is trying to throw and other philosophies that go along with why we have to determine the motion direction of the arm.

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then you're thrown back on 2-31-1&2, which leave it arguable as to exactly when a pass begins in Fed rules. It says, "In a pass, the ball travels in flight." However, it's not clear whether that's just a requirement for there having been a pass or defines the entire extent of the pass. If it defines the entire extent of the pass, then the movement of the ball in the passer's hand is not part of the pass and so doesn't determine its initial direction. If, however, it just determines that a pass has occurred, then with the wording "throwing the ball" it is at least arguable that the motion of the ball in the passer's hand is its initial direction.

Robert:

Since you don't have a pass until the ball is "in flight", it follows that the initial direction of a pass is the direction it takes after leaving the passer's hand.

[Reffing Rev.]

Is there any difference whether or not the "Passer" is behind or beyond the LOS? Behind the LOS I would not doubt calling this an incomplete pass. The action beyond the LOS is why I questioned it. IMO he didn't intend to pass, but as has been said intent is not the determining factor. I believe that the the note applies, it is a forward pass, and therefore illegal, the ball became dead when it struck the ground. It will be a first down for B, after the 15 yard penalty.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Is there any difference whether or not the "Passer" is behind or beyond the LOS? Behind the LOS I would not doubt calling this an incomplete pass. The action beyond the LOS is why I questioned it. IMO he didn't intend to pass, but as has been said intent is not the determining factor. I believe that the the note applies, it is a forward pass, and therefore illegal, the ball became dead when it struck the ground. It will be a first down for B, after the 15 yard penalty.

Yes, you can have a pass without a passer. If you couldn't, there would be no such thing as an incomplete illegal forward pass.