Way to intentionally ground legally?

[Robert Goodman]

I just thought of something I don't know why never occurred to me before. In almost all cases, the maker of a forward pass is an eligible receiver. If he wants to make an intentional incomplete pass, why doesn't he just barely push the ball forward out of one hand and then bat it down with the other? And if he's immediately hit so that he's unable to get to the ball for that swat with the other hand, rapid though the action would be, can't it be said (and established by his previous practice) that there was an eligible receiver in the area he was trying to throw it to, namely himself?

[NJOfficial]

I think this is an interesting potential loophole in the intentional grounding rule, namely 9-5-2d, which states that "a pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver" is illegal. The argument seems valid that the pass is in fact being thrown to an eligible offensive receiver, namely the QB himself.

However, I think that, despite having an eligible receiver "in the area," we should consider this to be a pass "intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage," which should be ruled as intentional grounding.

[CT1]

"SECTION 31 ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a pass, the ball travels in flight."

What you described doesn't meet that definition, at least in my mind. I would very likely rule your play a fumble.

[NJOfficial]

I guess I see this as similar to a play where a runner, in the process of being tackled, intentionally "fumbles" the ball forward to a teammate. The term "throwing" seems to apply equally to both cases, and the ball certainly travels in flight. If we rule that play an (illegal) forward pass, then I'd say we should rule this a forward pass and therefore intentional grounding also.

[Robert Goodman]

I think it would be as easy to make this as much a throw as is a shovel or chest pass as commonly used to make a short forward pass to a receiver in the backfield. It should be very easy to, for instance, face the right sideline and clearly pass the ball forward across the body with the right hand to knock it down with the left. I don't think anyone's current code makes that a fumble, nor do I think any of them make it an illegal/intentionally incomplete/intentionally grounded pass.

I suppose you could get fancy with it by passing it from behind your butt thru your legs to your other hand, but that might be USC for...uh...making an unnecessarily flashy move? Kind of a taunt?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by NJOfficial

I think this is an interesting potential loophole in the intentional grounding rule, namely 9-5-2d, which states that "a pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver" is illegal. The argument seems valid that the pass is in fact being thrown to an eligible offensive receiver, namely the QB himself.

However, I think that, despite having an eligible receiver "in the area," we should consider this to be a pass "intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage," which should be ruled as intentional grounding.

But it wasn't thrown incomplete, it was intentionally batted down by the receiver, and we allow receivers to intentionally ground passes. It so happens that the passer and the receiver in this case are the same person. (And I was thinking of this not only to save yardage, but to conserve time.)

[bossman72]

Don't risk your schedule on this theory!! haha

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But it wasn't thrown incomplete, it was intentionally batted down by the receiver, and we allow receivers to intentionally ground passes. It so happens that the passer and the receiver in this case are the same person. (And I was thinking of this not only to save yardage, but to conserve time.)

It all sounds great, but it will not work. Nice try though.

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I just thought of something I don't know why never occurred to me before. In almost all cases, the maker of a forward pass is an eligible receiver. If he wants to make an intentional incomplete pass, why doesn't he just barely push the ball forward out of one hand and then bat it down with the other? And if he's immediately hit so that he's unable to get to the ball for that swat with the other hand, rapid though the action would be, can't it be said (and established by his previous practice) that there was an eligible receiver in the area he was trying to throw it to, namely himself?

Save it for the a-11 professional league, coming to a city near you in 2013,

[HLin NC]

Save it for the a-11 professional league

Nah, but he'll try it in youth league and be befuddled when he gets flagged for USC after he gets flagged for the IG.

[Robert Goodman]

Then what would you consider the minimum distance (in terms of length or number of steps) for a legal forward pass from a player to himself?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Then what would you consider the minimum distance (in terms of length or number of steps) for a legal forward pass from a player to himself?

I did not know there was a minimum distance requirement. You either passed the ball to save a loss or you did not. If a player legitimately loses control of the ball and tries to bat the ball down I can see nothing being called. But you want us to believe that we are going to rule it that way based on your description. HS players tend to not do things that calculating without being found out.

Peace

[bigjohn]

Unbelievable!!!

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not know there was a minimum distance requirement. You either passed the ball to save a loss or you did not.

Is that actually judged? I ask because there've been threads recently in forums about what a team does if they want to spike the ball to stop the clock but never practice a hand-to-hand snap. I suggested that easier than practicing a C-QB exchange would be having the blocking back turn around and you'd hit him in the hands or chest with a downward moving forward pass that he would let bounce back off him to the ground.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Is that actually judged? I ask because there've been threads recently in forums about what a team does if they want to spike the ball to stop the clock but never practice a hand-to-hand snap. I suggested that easier than practicing a C-QB exchange would be having the blocking back turn around and you'd hit him in the hands or chest with a downward moving forward pass that he would let bounce back off him to the ground.

May I suggest, Robert, that according to NFHS Rules, a snap is a "backwards pass" (NF2-41-1). A "pass" being incomplete, only refers to a "forward pass (legal or illegal) (NF: 7-5-5), A snapped ball bouncing off the chest of a set back, would be a "loose ball" and remain alive (NF: 2-1-3). The responsibility of being able to execute a hand to hand snap, is the totally borne by any team wishing to utilize the Exemption provided under NF: 7-5-2-e.

Regarding a forward pass to yourself, being deliberately incompleted. This would be a call, based on the judgment of the covering official as to violating (NF:7-5-d or e), the main criteria of which is based on perceived intent, in the exclusive judgment of the covering official.