Question about PSK

[mikesears]

On an unsuccessful field goal attempt, where is the end of the kick for penalty enforcement purposes?

Example, K's ball 4/3 @ R-4. K1 tries a field goal but misses the attempt. R1 holds K2 at the R-2. How do we handle this type of play? I dont' have a new rulebook with PSK yet. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[ABoselli]

I think one of the conditions for PSK is it has to happen at least 3 yards beyond the neutral zone. I'm not sure how a play that ends in an unsuccessful FG attempt touchback gets ruled on PSK.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by mikesears
On an unsuccessful field goal attempt, where is the end of the kick for penalty enforcement purposes?

Example, K's ball 4/3 @ R-4. K1 tries a field goal but misses the attempt. R1 holds K2 at the R-2. How do we handle this type of play? I dont' have a new rulebook with PSK yet. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

2 yds does not make for the requirement of expanded NZ. SO, loose ball play, to the LOS. But wait....foul happened beyond the basic spot. I am thinking that basic spot is the 2, go 1/2 distance to goal line. MAkes it 1/G from the 1. Clock on snap.
How did I do?????

[cmathews]

without my rule book I can't remember. In Wyoming we used the PSK last year. In my mind for some reason, I thought that there was a provision about PSK not being in effect for scoring attemts??? Could be way off base so feel free to bring me back to reality....

[mikesears]

Lets move the kick back to the 7 although from my understanding, it won't matter. Obviously, I don't have the new rulebook with PSK but I haven't seen anything about R fouling past the expanded neutral zone. Everything I've read says the foul must occur on their side of the neutral zone.

What would be the ruling in NCAA on this play (from either the 4 or the 7)?

[JMN]

I don't have the book either.

My GUESS,

Loose ball play, penalty enforcement from previous spot R4, half the distance to the R2. K's ball, 4/goal @ R2. Clock starts on snap.

What do you think?

p.s. Does PSK apply here? R doesn't end up with the ball, so how would you apply a penalty against R. And, isn't there something about foul to have occurred after the ball has been kicked or passed the neutral zone?

[STEVED21]

I agree with JMN. 4th and 1 from the 2. BAsic spot is the LOS on the loose ball play. Always enforce from basic spot on R fouls.

BUT... R does have the ball at the end of the play. It's a touchback. Same as a punt into endzone. Still no effect on the enforcement though.

[nvfoa15]

2-16-2g The enforcement procedure for a foul by the receiving team during a scrimmage kick has been changed. The change reflects that should a foul occur by the receiving team on its side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick, the receiving team shall retain possession of the ball following enforcement of the penalty. The foul does not apply to a try.

Mike,

This is the wording I found on the NF web site. Although this statement is not very explantitive (my opinion), I believe that you can derive several requirements for PSK enforcement:
1. a scrimmage kick that crosses the LOS.
2. the spot of the foul by R is beyond the expanded NZ.
3. R's foul is before the kick has ended (loose ball).
4. R must have possession of the ball when the down is
over (if K possesses moot point).

The NF web site does not give a revision of the penalty enforcement rules with regard to PSK. However, under NCAA rules (I think), the spot of the foul and the spot where the kick ends are important. The enforcement spot is the end of the kick unless the foul is behind this spot, then enforce from the spot of the foul ("hit'em where it hurts the most!"). For touchbacks (an unsuccessful FG could be this) the end of the kick is the 20 yard line, thus it is used for reference point for penalty enforcement of PSK.

If I'm far off I'm sure somebody out there will correct me.

[JMN]

So,nvfoa15

Are you saying that under the NCAA PSK rule (assume that we're outside of the expanded neutral zone for this example, such as at the R7) that you would enforce the penalty from the spot of the foul, R2 vs. the succeeding spot R20? That makes sense even though logically I would want to give the ball back to A. Interesting.

So, you end up at the R1 as sm_bbcoach noted.

Do we now have the interpretations for both FED and NCAA?

[Theisey]

JMN:

The basic spot for PSK is the where the kick ends. It will no longer be the previous spot if PSK applies.
That's either where the team-R/B receiver caught the ball or the 20 yard line if the result is a TB.

Enforce the foul using the 3-and-1 or All-but-1 principle.
That means either the basic spot if the foul was in front of that spot, or the spot of the foul if it was behind the basic spot.
It's not that hard.

[STEVED21]

JMN,

The foul would be penalized from the previous spot, R4 if it is not a PSK foul. Only offensive fouls are enforced from the spot of the foul.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by STEVED21
JMN,

The foul would be penalized from the previous spot, R4 if it is not a PSK foul. Only offensive fouls are enforced from the spot of the foul.

OK, so it is 4/1 from the R-2. Basic spot is the LOS in this case R-4.

Now, Q about expanded NZ. It can go up to 2 yds behind the def line. Correct?. So, is this considered in the ENZ or not? I am thinking this is NOT. SO, PSK does apply here. All parts of PSK are met, crosses NZ, beyond ENZ, R fouls during loose ball, R posses ball at end (result of TB). Therefore, the enforcement spot is B's 20. So now we have B 1/10 at B10.

A then does not get a chance to get the ball back, right? This is the reason that PSK is being adopted. It is too much of a penality for R, give ball back after K has given it to them?

OK, put it to bed. B ball on B10; 1/10.
Thanks for letting me ramble and talk th is through.

[cmathews]

sm_bbcoach,
If you are going to say that it is PSK the enforcement spot is the 2 so it would be R's ball 1st and 10 from the 1. You enforce PSK stuff behind the end of the kick if it occurs behind the end of the kick. I however am of the opinion that the penalty occured in the ENZ, but even better point is what the %%^& is R doing holding on a FG attempt????? I bet the coach lets him know that we shouldn't do that again.......

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by cmathews
sm_bbcoach,
If you are going to say that it is PSK the enforcement spot is the 2 so it would be R's ball 1st and 10 from the 1. You enforce PSK stuff behind the end of the kick if it occurs behind the end of the kick. I however am of the opinion that the penalty occured in the ENZ, but even better point is what the %%^& is R doing holding on a FG attempt????? I bet the coach lets him know that we shouldn't do that again.......

I changed after reading posts. Enforcement spot is the LOS r-4. It would be the same enforcement as if ther kick is form the 50 and the hold happened at the R-48. You are correct in your view of the expanded NZ. It is really 3 yds from the LOS, unlike the 2 I mistakenly refered to above. So, ignore above. Enforcement spot is the LOS, NO PSK. A ball 4/1 from R-2.

Whew........... I think I will make sure the kid does not def hold on the FG attempt!!!!

[WVREF]

We had PSK in Ohio last year. According to what we used last year PSK fouls occurring behind the PSK spot are spot fouls. So if we change this scenario to R's hold occurring 3 yards deep in the end zone I think we would have to rule a safety 2 points for K. Of course what gets tricky is that the ball becomes dead as soon as it crosses the goal line so its possible this hold occurred during a dead ball period. Does this make sense or am I missing something?